Lesh v. Casady

[emblymouse]

Originally Posted by rontalsaurus

could recommend a Tuna album?
just one.

Oh yeah. Burgers. Go directly to Water Song. Repeat.

[skewh]

I chose why choose, but after some more thought I prefer Lesh. His musical prowess as well as his bass playing make him a great contribution to the music scene, just look at The Eleven.

[Joebone]

Don't know why I'm wading into this, but here goes...

First, the disclaimer: as a college student in the '70's I was playing trombone in jazz, latin and R&B bands. I was dismayed by the stagnancy of white-boy rock, and dismissed the Dead as a hippie-dippy affectation of upscale suburban kids who were all going to go off to law or business school.

Well, I was right about that fan base, but way wrong about the band! While I don't have a lot of Dead music, I've become a big fan.

As for the Airplane/Hot Tuna axis, the Starship would be a prime example of my thinking about where 70's rock went off the rails. But I missed Hot Tuna for the same reasons as the Dead, and even more profoundly regret the omission. I have become a big fan of Jorma Kaukonen and Jack Casady's work over the years, ranging from early Airplane, skipping over Starship, and into the present incarnations of Tuna. But again, I can't pretend to be completely familiar with Casady's work.

As for Lesh vs. Kaukonen, it's a very interesting choice, because they share so much in common. I'd concur that wandering bass is a hallmark of that San Francisco thing, and these guys did it very, very well. They each also pushed the envelope in exploring the tonal range of the electric bass. Perhaps this evolved from their proximity to the Alembic folks at that time, but you can hear each of them striving for greater tonal possibilities, and giving a lot of thought to the instrument's role in each of their projects.

But in a vote, I choose Casady.

In a word, when I listen to Casady, I never have any doubt whatsoever as to where his time is. Even when in a mellow mode, his attacks are crisp, and his lines reflect a subtle understanding of time.

In contrast, I often find the Dead's basslines and bass explorations to be too amorphous for my tastes. The basic tone is interesting, but I get this sense of wandering, in a way that is less focused than with Casady.

To be fair, Casady seems to have spent many years in drum-less situations, where Lesh has often been in the two-drummer and lots of guitars and keyboard mode with the Dead. In those circumstances, the meandering approach may be a sensible counterpoint to all of that rhythmic activity, and I think Lesh does a great job of selecting tones -- and oftentimes interesting note selection in the parts -- that provide a warm base of support for the vocal work, without stepping on the rhythmic stuff. And I have to say that the better the hi-fi, the easier it is to determine Lesh's rhythmic intentions in his context - there is clearly no deficit in his rhythmic awareness.

But at the end of the day, for me, Casady has more sparkle, a greater capability to surprise and engage, and can demonstrate a wide range of dynamics, tone, attack and concepts in the course of a single performance. He just seems more flexible and musical to me.

But hey, it's only an opinion...

[Lazylion]

For anyone who feels a lack of knowledge about Jack Casady, dig up a copy of the Airplane's live album "Bless It's Pointed Little Head". He romps, he stomps, he drives the bus. A VERY important album for my bass development. I wore out the vinyl years ago, and still listen to the CD these days.
However, I voted for both, because Phil Lesh had a big influence on me as well. A good starting point for him is "Europe '72". How did he get that transparent tone?
Still love them both!

[randy clere]

Lazylion!! yeah man," BLess It's Pointe Little Head" is the "crown of creation" of Jack's brilliance... Also, the first Acoustic Hot Tuna is INCREDIBLE... That album sparked my bass playing like no other....

[RickC]

Ditto on the last few. I don't hear as much similarity between these two players as others. Too me, Jack had a more driving style with a stronger sense of time. In that regard, he was maybe more of a "traditional" bass player than Phil, although calling Jack traditional doesn't quite fit either.

But as for the poll, I couldn't pick one over the other. They're both giants, both enormously influential, both unique and special in their own way.

/rick

[JTE]

Well, I'd have voted for Jack mostly because he was in a band with people who sang in tune.

Other than "American Beauty" and "Working Man's Dead", I just couldn't get into the Dead at all. But Jack's playing on "Crown Of Creation", "Bless Its Pointed Little Head", "Burgers", and the first Hot Tuna album (the live one) all had big influences on how I thought of the bass' function as I was starting to play.

Besides, all the great bassists' names start with "J"...

Jerry Jemmott
James Jamerson
Jim Fielder
Jack Bruce
John Francis Pastorious
John Entwistle


John

[jerry]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, I'd have voted for Jack mostly because he was in a band with people who sang in tune.

I think that's debatable. Grace was pretty pitchy live, but a lot cuter than Garcia.

[Thor]

In Grace's autobiography she flat out states she doesn't
actually remember much of the 60's.

I have had a long affair with both bassists, but I lean towards
Jack a bit. I did pilfer, imitate and incorporate a lot of his
techniques into my playing style. One could have many worse
players to emulate.

A friend of mine teaches acoustic guitar classes with Jorma at
the Fur Peace Ranch from time to time, and she noted to me
that Jack was a bit more demanding as a bass teacher than some
of the other instructors on other instruments. I am not surprised
as he certainly was one of the most accomplished bassists of the
SF scene, and likely he achieved that by demanding a lot of himself.

[markjazzbassist]

i love both of their tones, playing, and hippieness

[Blue Moose]

Well, our group does a couple of Airplane tunes. Having recently switched to bass in this band, I've been learning Casady parts and really diggin' his playing. "Somebody To Love" is killer. Soooo...I vote Casady.

[Thor]

The seminal recording of 'Somebody to Love' is on 'Bless It's
Pointed Little Head' recorded live at the Fillmore East. If you
are covering Casady, give that one a hard listen. Very strong
driving bottom on that tune during those shows.

They were there 3 nights iirc, and all 3 nights were taped.
The record was then amalgamated from the best
performances.

[AlembicPlayer]

Originally Posted by rontalsaurus

could recommend a Tuna album?
just one.

Double Dose

one of my favs!

[kesslari]

I'm another for "both". Jack seems more solid, Phil more exploratory.
I'd rather play like Jack, but I spend more time wondering "what was he thinking when he came up with that?" when I listen to Phil.

[Lazylion]

Originally Posted by jerry

I think that's debatable. Grace was pretty pitchy live, but a lot cuter than Garcia.

+1 Almost as cute as Bobby!




LOL

[strappa]

Originally Posted by rontalsaurus

could recommend a Tuna album?
just one.

I've got an insteresting show from '69, but it's a little too loose and protean jam-rock to really merit repeat listenings.

Splashdown

just Jorma and Jack doing a live radio performance - classic

[Mojo-Man]

I love both.
Live 72 was big for me.
But, Jack's tone kills me.
And hay, Jack recorded with Hendrix ?

[GregDunn]

Jack was my bass instructor, so... One of the things I loved about his class was that he emphasized playing with the right feel, enhancing the music, feeling the groove. The only time I saw him get annoyed at someone during class was when they tried to play a bass part before listening carefully to the whole song. He really taught me a lot about playing the bass musically and getting the sound you want with finger technique, and for that I'm grateful. It's largely why I consider him a bass hero now.

It was also awesome when he showed up in class the morning after playing with G.E. Smith and displayed the huge blood blisters on his fingers. He had some serious tone that night.

[groooooove]

i like the dead more, but i think i like cassady more as a bass player. ive seen them both live, jack definately entertained me more- phil & friends is kinda lame, too "professional and rehearsed," rather than off-the-cuff (like ratdog is )

[MLysh]

One thing to keep in mind about these two guys is that musically they are coming from very different places. Jack has heavy blues and R&B roots from growing up around and playing black dance music in the D.C. area. Phil's musical background, from what I've read, was much more jazz and classical. To me, the premier feature of Jack's style is an absolutely relentless rhythmic drive. His note choices, however, are still coming from the blues. Phil is practically the opposite. He seems to surf the song's rhythm rather than propel it. Phil does not do funky very well. It is his note choices that make listening to him a fascinating experience. At his best, he is in constant counterpoint dialog with Garcia. That type of interplay was absolutely unique for a rock band in the late '60s. It would be impossible for me to choose between the two. Both are major influences and I've been trying my whole electric bass playing life to reflect the strengths of both of their styles.