The NEW weekly "Does anybody else LIKE Jaco" thread

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by bucephylus

I just think you have to be careful when you start using words like "best" in discussing composition. I also adore Zawinul and Shorter's compositions. But they are, IMO, different in intended ways. The thing about Jaco's compositions is that they never seem old or dated, or worn out after repeated listenings, and yet they are approachable and you can get your arms around them. Mingus was also special, but some of his stuff gets so deep, that I like it in doses. Well, of course, that's true for any particular composer. I personally feel Jaco's compositions are highly successful for their balance of creativity, tension and release, and accessibility. I wouldn't want to go any further than that.

You're right: "best" is not the best way to say it. I don't believe truly objective standards of best and not-best exist with respect to composition. But I do have strong feelings about it nevertheless, as I think most of us probably do. I mean, I don't suppose I can objectively prove that Ellington is a greater composer than Kenny G, but in my bones I will always feel that there's more substance and beauty in the Duke's music than in the G-man's. For me, anyway.

What I probably should have said was that to me--and, I'm convinced, to many others--Jaco's impact was orders of magnitude greater as a bassist and musician than as a composer. To me, in depth, beauty, range, impact, harmonic/melodic interest, and whatever other parameters one might apply to compositions, Jaco's tunes, though good to very good generally (and including IMO at least one brilliant tune in "Three Views"), on the whole don't approach the level of Shorter's or Zawinul's, let alone Mingus's. That's not a knock. By way of analogy, Dominique Wilkins may not have been as great a forward as Larry Bird, but he was still pretty damn good.

I would say that jazz composition would not have been much different if Jaco had never written ... but bass guitar playing would have been very different if he hadn't played.

[JimK]

Well said, Richard (as usual).

Although-
How many 'dunk contests' did Bird ever win?

[bucephylus]

I agree, that's well said. From an impact point of view, I agree.

However, IMO, he also did some things with the big band that I wish did get picked up on, and the compositions/arrangements were big parts of that. All those tunes he wrote for WOM are just without precedent. I mean, what other examples of such extensions of big band into contemporary, driving, totally hip territory are there? Steel drum parts in a big band? Yeah, I'm aware of some of the modern big bands; but IMO they don't go anywhere close to where Jaco took WOM. Instead, they increasingly lean in a conservative neo classical vein. The WOM work seems to broadly go unrecognized and remain like an anachronism. Mention Jaco, and Weather Report and the first solo album or maybe the Joni stuff come up. Heck, just look at the labor of love by a lot of talented folks going into the JP Big Band now. They're trying to say something. That compositional space is special. IMHHO.

[dukerutledge]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HTO8VfJsY...co%20pastorius

pretty outrageous

[Introvox]

to me..............he was the chosen one.



enough said.

[SamJ]

Originally Posted by dukerutledge

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HTO8VfJsY...co%20pastorius

pretty outrageous

[dumbassist]

I Know Is Legendary And Everything, But So Far, All The Songs I Heard Abt Em Dosen't Show That... But I'm Trying My Best To Find A Good Song By Em...One That Shows His Fretless Skills...

Any Suggestions??

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by bucephylus

I agree, that's well said. From an impact point of view, I agree.

However, IMO, he also did some things with the big band that I wish did get picked up on, and the compositions/arrangements were big parts of that. All those tunes he wrote for WOM are just without precedent. I mean, what other examples of such extensions of big band into contemporary, driving, totally hip territory are there? Steel drum parts in a big band? Yeah, I'm aware of some of the modern big bands; but IMO they don't go anywhere close to where Jaco took WOM. Instead, they increasingly lean in a conservative neo classical vein. The WOM work seems to broadly go unrecognized and remain like an anachronism. Mention Jaco, and Weather Report and the first solo album or maybe the Joni stuff come up. Heck, just look at the labor of love by a lot of talented folks going into the JP Big Band now. They're trying to say something. That compositional space is special. IMHHO.

You're right that the WOM material doesn't get talked about that much. I'm familiar with that stuff--maybe not exhaustively, but pretty familiar--but I have to say that while I like the arrangements and the players are happening, Jaco's compositions--which, again, are good IMHO--don't really knock me out. Actually, the tunes I like best that I heard that band do were both somebody else's: Elegant People and Invitation.

But as you say, it's a matter of personal taste, and I would never argue that you were wrong for liking the WOM stuff. I personally think that Jaco did his best work with Weather Report, but that opinion is probably worth about what you paid for it.

[Eric Perry]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I personally think that Jaco did his best work with Weather Report.

Personally, I agree.

Although, as I said in an ealier post, I do love his work with Joni Mitchell as well.

[bucephylus]

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions. However, it is interesting to note how different those opinions are just in this thread. I think it says something in itself about Jaco's broad scope.

For me left alone on a desert island with but 3 Jaco tunes to listen to, I would put Liberty City, Reza, and Domingo right at the top.

Curiously, I also was a massive fan of the solo album/Weather Report stuff. When WOM studio issued, I listened with amazement and some amount of horror to Crisis, thought OK that's amazing and filed the disc. It didn't really do anything for me at first listen; and the big band thing didn't resonate at all. Years later when the Birthday Concert issued on CD, I happened to be playing in a couple of Big Bands, and was using a fretless Jazz, and the Birthday Concert ended up in the car; and after a bit of listening, I couldn't get enough. Yes, Havona, Teen Town, Port of Entry etc. etc. are great. But those horn arrangements and compositions in the WOM material does more for me, because you can hear Jaco oozing out of the whole band, not just the bass. For me that was a whole new level of things. I was just listening to that disc on the morning commute today, and it is just as fresh as ever.

On a different note, I'm curious about Havona. I've heard it has quotes from Stravinsky and a Dial Soap commercial. I suppose the Stravinsky is those outrageous large intervals toward the end, but I never knew what the Dial Soap commercial reference was. Now that I'm living down here in Dial Soap land, I'm curious. What was the significance of that commercial to make it quotable, and what was the quote? I guess part of my problem was that I wasn't watching any TV at all in that timeframe. So, the commercial thing didn't register.

[TL5]

Egads, I know I'll catch some grief for this but;

I don't like Jaco's music.

I can appreciate his virtuosity but the songs do not move me. I used to own the self-titled album on vinyl and a handful of Weather Report albums. I gave them away. Recently, I visited iTunes and sampled the Jaco album again, I just don't care for the songs.

I'd rather listen to good songs than great soloist/players. There are times when those items collide, like Pino on a Don Henley album but it doesn't happen in the music of many of the heralded bassists IMHO.

[dumbassist]

what he said^^^^

I Guess you he's not for everyone...

but hey, at least we tried to like 'em...

[oddio]

Our keyboard player just brought by a copy of Joni's Shadows and Light DVD and I have to say that it must include some of the best live Jaco footage that still exists...

If you can forgive the Canadiana (Toller Cranston skates to a number), this is a great concert; Jaco playing his best live chops, Pat Metheny jazzin' it up in a creative way and Michael Brecker blowing up a storm. That's before you even mention Joni herself.

If you haven't seen the DVD yet it's time to go scouting. Over the years I had managed to convince myself that I didn't like Jaco. It's obvious to me now that it was a simple a case of "chops envy". Man!

[64jazzbass]

Originally Posted by dumbassist

I Know Is Legendary And Everything, But So Far, All The Songs I Heard Abt Em Dosen't Show That... But I'm Trying My Best To Find A Good Song By Em...One That Shows His Fretless Skills...

Any Suggestions??

Donna Lee, Continuum, A Remark You Made, to name just three

[64jazzbass]

So many of you are missing the point! It isn't about whether you like Jaco and his music. Talent, genius, and originality, as well as brilliant creativity have nothing to do with popularity. History is littered with creative geniuses who were ignored, burned at the stake, chastised, institutionalized, or at the very least misunderstood in their day. It is only after careful scrutiny of generations that the truth is cemented in stone. The variety of unbelievably talented bass players who are contributing to the Word of Mouth big band projects is a testimony to Jaco's genius. Trust me, they aren't doing it for the money! You either get it or you don't and some people don't.

[kenlacam]

I love Jaco's work.
BTW, Larry Graham sucks!

[heath_the_great]

Originally Posted by kenlacam

BTW, Larry Graham sucks!

how exactly?
and how can you be inspired by prince, rhonda smith and marcus miller, and not like larry?..id say larry is the biggest influence on prince

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by TL5

Egads, I know I'll catch some grief for this but;

I don't like Jaco's music.

I can appreciate his virtuosity but the songs do not move me. I used to own the self-titled album on vinyl and a handful of Weather Report albums. I gave them away. Recently, I visited iTunes and sampled the Jaco album again, I just don't care for the songs.

I'd rather listen to good songs than great soloist/players. There are times when those items collide, like Pino on a Don Henley album but it doesn't happen in the music of many of the heralded bassists IMHO.

You're in the WRONG thread!!

This is the thread for people who like Jaco - there are about 500 other threads for people saying they don't get Jaco!!

[ras1983]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

You're in the WRONG thread!!

This is the thread for people who like Jaco - there are about 500 other threads for people saying they don't get Jaco!!

+1, Bravo!!!
Recently bought a best of weather report album, and it has birdland, probably my favourite recording featuring jaco. it is such a classic rendition, his harmonics on that song are inspiring.

interestingly, i saw a tv special featuring billy sheahan performing birdland. he wasn't jaco, but he did an admirable job! just goes to show how far jaco's influence reaches.

[Lazylion]

Originally Posted by 64jazzbass

So many of you are missing the point! It isn't about whether you like Jaco and his music. Talent, genius, and originality, as well as brilliant creativity have nothing to do with popularity. History is littered with creative geniuses who were ignored, burned at the stake, chastised, institutionalized, or at the very least misunderstood in their day. It is only after careful scrutiny of generations that the truth is cemented in stone. The variety of unbelievably talented bass players who are contributing to the Word of Mouth big band projects is a testimony to Jaco's genius. Trust me, they aren't doing it for the money! You either get it or you don't and some people don't.

Excellent post, especially the WOM part.
For those who think Jaco sucks, ask yourself 2 questions:
1. Who has been dead as long as Jaco, but still gets as many mentions in the bass mags as he does?
2. Why is that?