An open letter to Bugs

[Ed Fuqua]

Not to unduly step JT, but I was halfway through when it closed and I HATE typus intteruptus...

Originally Posted by cwazywabbit

Jamming with a metronome is different than relying on it as a source for good time. Ray Brown etc would have had good time without a metronome. But, todayt many rely on it as a source of their time and Berlin said that this doesn't work.

I can't talk with Ray Brown anymore, he's dead. But the bass players of consequence that I DO talk with, all use/have used the nome in some very specific ways to deal with developing a time feel. Someone had quoted Jeff in the past (so I don't know if it actually is something he said) that "bassists of the 20s and 30s never used metronomes" which is directly contradicted by things they've written or said in interviews. again, Jeff said to me something similar, that I "probably got good time from someplace else", again this was provably not true.

Originally Posted by cwazywabbit

]Here is a quote from Joe Pass. "Guitarists should be able to pick up the guitar and play music on it for an hour, without a rhythm section or anything."

And thanks to all the work I've done with a metronome, I can.

Originally Posted by cwazywabbit

Jeff also said that people who used a metronome must believe that they aren't good enough as musicians to develop good time without it. This may smart a little, but, if music comes from within, then what would we sound like if there were no click in the world. This philosophy makes us responsible to play better based on what we know and how long we took to learn it.

And just because he said it, doesn't mean it's true. If music comes from within, you shouldn't have to do any ear training either, right? In fact, it must be that sitting at a piano and working with your ear so that you can recognize intervals in the first and second octaves, triads in closed position in all inversions, in open position in all inversions, 4 part chords, 4 parts with one tension, 4 parts with 2 tensions WILL NOT HELP ANYONE EVER develop their ear so that they can hear with any kind of clarity, right? Because if working with a rhythmic constant does absolutely nothing to help develop steady rhythm, then working with a melodic/harmonic constant does absolutely nothing to help develop the ability to hear melodic or harmonic structure, right?

[KeithPas]

I'm sure you know more about what Jeff Berlin's stance on metronomes than me but what I heard him say was that when learning a piece of music the player should be less interested in doing it "in time (as with a metronome)" until the music is learned.
I personally feel that the metronome is a great way to shine some light on tempo inconsistancies. Sometimes players think their time is better than it actually is.

[Ezbass]

Ah the redoubtable Mr Berlin and his POVs. I'm starting to learn to take from Jeff what works for me and ignore the rest, either that ot I'll start foaming at the mouth too much and posting vitriol rather playing (it's an old guy thing, like shouting at the TV more than watching it). Anyway one of the things that Jeff has said in the past is that it's pointless for a bass player to use a metronome as you'll never play with one live and that a drum machine is better. Now whether that is true or not, for my part I much prefer to practice with a drum machine as it helps me groove better than a metronome as there is more rhythmic info to be had (kick, snare, hihat, etc). I really miss the drum machine in my old Pandora as I use a Tascam for practice now. At the end of the day you should use what works for you, but it is important to have/develop a good sense of time and whether you use a metronome, drum machine or recordings to achieve this is irrelevant providing that it works.

[ZonGuy]

My opinion is that you can make dramatic improvement by working effectively with a metronome. John Coltrane is dead too, but he did say a few things about that as well.

One can also practice with a drum machine, but you working different musical muscle groups.

As far as what Jeff Berlin says........He is a talented bass player and its a free country.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Ezbass

... for my part I much prefer to practice with a drum machine as it helps me groove better than a metronome as there is more rhythmic info to be had (kick, snare, hihat, etc).

And this is precisely why working with a nome has such value. With a drum machine providing other musical "voices" - hihat on 2 and 4, ride cymbal playing a pattern, bass drum, fills, etc. - you have so much more to lean on. The difference between your line being backed by a drum machine and standing alone and naked with only the metronome is that ALL of the musical information has to come from you. No ifs, ands or buts. Your line either grooves or it doesn't, it is melodic or it isn't, it defines and propels the harmony of the tune or it doesn't. Nothing else to stand on.

If you push through to the end of a turnaround, the drum machine still fills and gets you back to one. If you start pushing or pulling, that eighth note pattern makes sure you don't stray too far. All of which is a crutch.

Playing with a drum machine (or band in a box etc.) is a great way to practice a part; you can program what the actual drummer is going to do (roughly) and practice playing your part. But that's not the same thing as working on your time. Developing a solid, relaxed timefeel is best worked on with as little "other" input as possible. Cause if you can make that little click groove and swing, you can make ANYBODY groove and swing.

[standupright]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And this is precisely why working with a nome has such value. With a drum machine providing other musical "voices" - hihat on 2 and 4, ride cymbal playing a pattern, bass drum, fills, etc. - you have so much more to lean on. The difference between your line being backed by a drum machine and standing alone and naked with only the metronome is that ALL of the musical information has to come from you. No ifs, ands or buts. Your line either grooves or it doesn't, it is melodic or it isn't, it defines and propels the harmony of the tune or it doesn't. Nothing else to stand on.

If you push through to the end of a turnaround, the drum machine still fills and gets you back to one. If you start pushing or pulling, that eighth note pattern makes sure you don't stray too far. All of which is a crutch.

Playing with a drum machine (or band in a box etc.) is a great way to practice a part; you can program what the actual drummer is going to do (roughly) and practice playing your part. But that's not the same thing as working on your time. Developing a solid, relaxed timefeel is best worked on with as little "other" input as possible. Cause if you can make that little click groove and swing, you can make ANYBODY groove and swing.

i agree with everything you've said. i have my students practice with a metronome when they come over and it has helped their feeling of constant time 100 fold. this was the case for not only begginers, but for people playing 10+ years who at first thought they had steady timing, until the metronome was turned on.

[KeithPas]

Does everyone here use a metronome when learning a difficult piece of music?

[Ed Fuqua]

Yes and no. Again, the methodology of working on time and the methodology of learning a specific piece of music are two distinct and seperate things.

When working on a melody or specific part, I'll use the nome after I've worked through issues of fingering, position shifts, phrasing etc. If I'm working on a transcribed solo, I don't use the nome at all, I play or sing along with the recording.
If I'm working on improvisational exercises, I use the nome as a rhythmic constant.

[Ed Fuqua]

From an article by Dave Douglas. Despite cwazywabbit/JB's assertion that "no pros ever used a metronome" Dave has appeared on over 45 recordings as leader, co- leader or sideman in addition to touring, concerts and club appearances etc.



The Metronome: No matter what materials you are working on it’s important to have a thorough rhythmic awareness. One of the biggest issues I hear in group improvisation is when musicians, both individually and collectively, are not feeling time accurately and/or collaboratively. To work on this, play your melodies (or rhythms or timbres or tunes) with the metronome, but create some challenges by periodically shifting your relationship to the pulse. That is, without changing the metronome setting, play your material faster or slower in relationship to its steady beat.

Start with the metronome around 92 beats per minute. Begin by hearing the metronome’s pulse as a quarter note. Get comfortable with that. Then play your material twice as slow by hearing the metronome clicks as eighth notes. Play it twice as fast by considering the metronome pulse as a half note. Those are three of the most basic relationships.

To practice bebop or tune playing, the most common use of the metronome is to hear it on beats two and four in a bar of 4/4. Again, get comfortable with that relationship using whatever materials you have at hand. This is not about a right way or wrong way to hear. Rather, this exercise is about learning to play rhythm accurately no matter what contradictory or challenging information is put forth as an objective reference.

Once you are comfortable playing written or improvised material alone (or with others) with the metronome in the above relationships, you can add several further layers. Hear the metronome as a dotted quarter note. In 4/4 time, this will create a three bar phrase (in other words, there will be three bars between metronome clicks that fall on the first beat of the bar). However, continue to play the material you are practicing in its own phrases, if necessary against the three bar phrase of dotted quarter notes – the pulse being represented by the metronome. You can also practice material in ¾ time this way, with the bars being subdivided evenly by the dotted quarter notes.

Now hear the metronome as a dotted half note. This again creates a three bar phrase, with the metronome falling on one and four in the first bar, three in the second bar, and two in the third bar. Some of these relationships are tricky. Take your time to make sure you are able to hear this. Slow it down and write it down if necessary. The whole point of this is hearing and playing accurately. There’s no way to do that any faster or slower than you can hear. So be honest with yourself. Make sure you’re doing it for real. Life moves at unpredictable speeds, both unimaginably fast and slow, but also imperceptibly smooth, eternally calm and steady. Bring that into your practice by learning to accept it and work with it.

“Ninety percent of this game is half mental.” - Yogi Berra

These exercises are just the beginning. Try hearing the metronome on the eighth note after two and four. Or the eighth note before two and four. Or the triplet before or after two and four. Try hearing the metronome as a quintuplet in a 4/4 bar. Then try taking any of these relationships and, rather than practicing your material against the metronome, try going with the new phrasing proposed by the relationships. In other words, play your material with the accents of a three bar phrase, all the while holding the actual four bar phrase in your head so you don’t lose the “correct” placement of the notes. If you can hear it you can feel it and if you’re feeling it nothing can throw you.

Remember that the metronome doesn’t lie. There will be moments when you are convinced the metronome is broken. Don’t fall for it.

A frequently asked question is how to practice meters like 5/4 or 7/8 or 9/8 with a metronome. You can use these relationships to get at that, too. Subdivide the bar in half, for example. In 5/4 that would put the metronome on one and the second eighth note of three. Try it. Or hear the metronome as a whole note (every four beats) so that it represents: one and five in the first bar, four in the second, three in the third, and two in the fourth. Use this for any meter.

These exercises are about developing a solid time feel. Part of my motivation stems from the philosophy that each musician in an ensemble should be equally responsible for the time. Part of it comes from a desire for freedom -- freedom from being locked into playing something the same way every time, freedom to search for unique and varied means of expression.

[KeithPas]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Yes and no. Again, the methodology of working on time and the methodology of learning a specific piece of music are two distinct and seperate things.

When working on a melody or specific part, I'll use the nome after I've worked through issues of fingering, position shifts, phrasing etc. If I'm working on a transcribed solo, I don't use the nome at all, I play or sing along with the recording.
If I'm working on improvisational exercises, I use the nome as a rhythmic constant.

This is pretty much exactly what I do and this is what I had read JB advocating; not using the nome when learning a specific piece of music. I do not agree with any train of thought that says the nome has no place, thats just not true. The nome does not lie and many players have a higher regard for their sense of time than they should.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by KeithPas

...this is what I had read JB advocating; not using the nome when learning a specific piece of music.

Maybe elsewhere, when he had a forum at this site his statement was as I presented, likewise cwazywabbit/JB's posts recently reposited i.e. no one can learn to improve their time and timefeel by using a metronome.

[Ívar Þórólfsson]

Since the old thread was closed for a reason.

I'm going to close this one for now.

[Ívar Þórólfsson]

Thread reopened after some investigation.

[KeithPas]

I'm glad this was re-opened, there was none of the acrimony of past threads on this subject just good info.

[standupright]

Originally Posted by Ívar Þórólfsson

Thread reopened after some investigation.

thank you

[Ed Fuqua]

My thanks too, Ivar.

It's not up yet, but my buddy Jon Raney is posting sections of an ongoing discussion with pianist Mike Kanan and the next one is going to be Mike's approach to working with a metronome.

Not to continually flog the corpse of an equine quadruped, but as Mike is currently (but he's been with her for about 6 years now) touring the world as the pianist and musical director for Jane Monheit and prior to that filled the same set of shoes with Little Jimmy Scott, has a number of recordings out as a leader (Fresh Sound New Talent) as well as sideman and maintains a performance schedule for his own trio (Lee Hudson or Neal Miner on bass and Eliot Zigmund on drums), I think it's not a stretch to refer to him as a "pro"....

[MD]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

The Metronome: No matter what materials you are working on...

Copied, pasted, printed.
Subscribed
Thanks.

[Alan Vorse]

Since Mr. Berlin visited over the weekend, I thought this thread deserved a bump since people who disagree with Jeff's opinions don't seem to be near a computer on the weekends.

It is a continuation of this thread:
Jeff Berlin and Talkbass Members

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Alan Vorse

Since Mr. Berlin visited over the weekend, I thought this thread deserved a bump since people who disagree with Jeff's opinions don't seem to be near a computer on the weekends.

This is true for me. There was one night when he was on here that I was on too, but I was too "tired" to put up a cogent argument with him so I skipped it. Every other time he's been on, I've been on a plane, including last Sunday.

I did put up an argument in one of his threads shortly after he quit for the day, which I'd hoped would have gotten carried over to the next time he did it, or maybe he would have gotten curious later in the day, but it never happened.

But Jeff's insistence on insulting those who don't do things his way, and his snarky comments about people on Talkbass not being players, and his snarky comments about striking a nerve, should not go un-challenged. That, to me, is the typical argument of someone who knows his viewpoints are built on thin premises. So if it's at all possible for me to be here next time he's on, I will be happy to get the ball rolling, and we'll get a show going!

[P. Aaron]

Metronome, drum machine, sheet music, recordings...I'll take all the help I can get.

The creation of tools is what has lifted us up to this point in time where we can talk about and refine a magnificent luxury like music.