Overrated bass players

[Bruce Lindfield]

I must say that I can see where Paul A is coming from. When I was starting to play music, the Beatles were everywhere and nauseatingly familiar - they were the band your little sister and your parents liked. The most famous stuff was always sickly sentimental to me and to admit you liked it was instant social death to the "crowd" who were listening to Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple etc.

In the early 70s, when I started listening to music in terms of wanting to be a bass player, I didn't see McCartney as a role model in any way - I wanted to play heavy riffs like JPJ and not "Mull of Kintyre" or "Silly Love Songs" - yuucchh! Looking back at the Beatles then, I saw them as the "Boy band" of the time - adored by little girls and seen as "nice" by adults. Whereas the Rolling Stones and Who were the rebels and even if we didn't particularly like their music, they were cooler than the Beatles!

By '71 - '73 it was clear that there were much better bass players around than McCartney and it was also annoying that music teachers liked the Beatles and thought they were being "hip" by mentioning them and suggesting we play some of their stuff!

I can appreciate that McCartney may have been the "first" to do some things, but that is no reason why you should like his playing or want to listen to it. I feel that if you want imaginative bass lines, there are lots more places to look than the Beatles catalogue nowadays and I have no desire to listen to any of it - even less the McCartney solo stuff.

[Rockinjc]

Eli,

I SAID - I STAND CORRECTED!

I can admit that when you narrow the catigory by applying vintage and style PaulM shines. But by doing so one can also concider themselves one of the greats. In fact last weekend I was the most awsome bassist in the entire coffie shop.

jc

[rekesbass]

looks like i just got an a!s chewin from jimk!! I knew that reply would get someones underwear in a bundle .my point is someone should'nt say a person sucks just because they did'nt get some spiritual feeling when they slapped that record on the turntable or heard it on the radio.I don't believe any one is really overrated,their just the flavor of the month..does this make any sense to you? and your right about that Nikki Sixx thing woops ...hope i did'nt offend anyone

[Robert B]

Rekesbass -- read a little further into JimK's post -- I think he understood where you were coming from and so do I. 30 years ago (makes me cringe to say that) I was a teenage musician in Chicago. There was a strong rival band in the area called TW4 (later TW5). I remember going to see them at one of the high school dances. This was shortly after the release of the movie "Woodstock". Their lead singer was strutting around on stage, sporting leather fringe and tossing the mike stand around in an obvious imitation of Roger Daltrey. My bandmates and I stood around and looked down our lofty noses at these fools capable of such crass plagiarism--didn't they realize that everyone could see right through them (we thought). We would certainly never stoop so low. Well, TW5 went on to become Styx. There's been more than once in the intervening years I've looked back on that day laughing at myself. After all, these guys made millions, I'm sure. I assure you, I have not. So, I sometimes wonder, looking back, who was the real fool? So when you talk about folks taking shots at those who have made it, I understand completely, and I respect your perceptiveness. As to whether the word "jealous" applies to anyone on this post, that I don't know. I guess each individual has to answer that for him or herself. Take care,


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Robert B

[JimK]

Rekesbass-It's cool...I dunno how I got sucked into this type of "diss-cussion"; I usually try to find something "good" in everything I hear. If a certain tune is "schmaltz"...well, if it's "well done schmaltz", that's alright by me;-)
Robert B-you gotta hear 'Trane's TRANSITION solo!

[Rockinjc]

I can dig schmaltz as well as anybody. I listen to AM station that plays “all time hits” here in Lansing. Anything from 1940 on seems to be fair game. I really love to listen to a tune that may have made me gag in my more hormone ridden years, and look for the good bits. Sometimes this can be more engaging as listening to something that is totally cool. Mostly letting myself imagine the perspective of the producers and musicians or wondering why it got over with the general public at that time. Perhaps we should start a thread about underrated schmaltz. Or Bad Music with Good Bass Lines. Tony Orlando and Dawn anyone?

jc

[This message has been edited by Rockinjc (edited January 25, 2000).]

[rekesbass]

ok maybe jealousy was a harsh word...(my mouth has been getting me into trouble from day one )I must admit that I am envious...even humbled by all of the players listed here(present company included..even Nikki Sixx)I'm just a ball buster by nature who also likes to stir up controversy(hope I succeeded...please stroke my ego on this )and I welcome a good tongue lashing in return.This is a touchy subject in which someones underwear WILL get bundled(mine did )so kudos to all of you who beat me up on this subject.I too got sucked in .Until next controversial subject.....hey jimk shmaltz? I'm not familiar with this term...but I like it

[JimK]

Rockinjc-"OK", I'll admit I had/have(somewhere)Dawn's "Knock Three Times" & "Candida" on vinyl;-)
rekesbass-I was playing with a certain drummer who used "schmaltz" to describe anything he perceived to be "lightweight" in nature...
Believe it or not, this site is very tame compared to some others I've hit...later.

[rekesbass]

There's others?...I'm new to the net,could you pass'em on?I'd like to check'em out

[JimK]

Rekesbass-the other site I check out is "non-bass" oriented. It is a "jazz" site called www.jazzcorner.com
(Ed Fuqua & Charlie O. sometimes post there). At JC, here are a couple of rival factions that constantly battle over "their" myopic view of "what jazz is, what it's supposed to be, blahblahblah". There's a lot of name calling & behavior unfitting mature adults. I'm just as bad as I'll read & laugh as some of the posters are really grisled veterans of cyber BBs.
Later...(snowed in at home today).


[This message has been edited by JimK (edited January 26, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by JimK (edited January 26, 2000).]

[rekesbass]

Jimk,thanx for the link.have'nt had much time to really get into it been shovelin myself out we gotta foot here in upstate ny....my achin arms-back-legs

[Robert B]

Hey JimK -- You're comment on "'Trane's TRANSITION solo!" went over my head. Can you elaborate a little bit? (unless of course, you're still shovelling snow-- I did mine last night before it had a chance to freeze up solid!)

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Robert B

[JimK]

Robert B-the album is called TRANSITION; it's the classic Coltrane Quartet(it's also on the COMPLETE IMPULSE STUDIO RECORDINGS box set). 'Trane just goes off(IMO)on this particular tune.

[Paul A]

Hi,
Here's an interesting little snippet from the January edition of "Bassist" (U.K. Bass Mag):
"I NEVER wrote ANYTHING on BASS" ......Paul McCartney (!)

[JimK]

Paul A-
Mac is probably talking about COMPOSING ...I'm relatively sure he composed his tunes on the piano or guitar(ie NOT the bass).
A putz like me composes on the bass.
By the way...when I mentioned earlier "as I became more 'learned', I appreciated Paul Mac..." in no way was I aiming that at anyone BUT MYSELF. In the '60s, I dug The Beatles; when I began playing in the '70s, I dissed them; into the '80s, I'm a "little Jazz Nazi" & blew them off...then the cds came out & I took some time to re-visit them. In the context of what they were playing & WHEN they were playing...what can I say, I dig them(so, for me, it shows I had it "right" when I was about 7 years old).
Later...

[sundog]

In defense of Paul McCartney (as if he really needed any)...
I think all of you are forgetting one very important thing. If you are judging a bassist only the merit of his virtuosity, then we are only talking about musical masturbation.
However if you are judging a bass player on the true merit of his contribution (and that would be to the music itself) then you would have to agree that Paul McCartney was an innovator for putting some very tasteful and choice lines that were the perfect groove for the song.
He was playing bass parts that went beyond the traditional root note playing of most bassists at that time.
What he played was great because it was within the context of the song. Bass lines need not be complex to be great.
Do I think he is a great bass player? For the music he did, yes. One of the greatest of all time? No.
I can think of many who are better. But when I was younger I played his Bass parts on an old guitar as I didn't know what a bass was, so I didn't even know I was playing bass.
His bass playing was very influencial to me yet I did move on to other bassists and styles.

[Paul A]

Please forward details of how "musical masturbation" works (plain brown envelope please)......

[sundog]

LOL...as we all know, it's fun...but how meaningful is it really?

[Bruce Lindfield]

If you read the posts carefully I don't think that virtuosity has been mentioned. In my case and I suspect in a few others it is a case of over-familiarity (breeds contempt) and a tendency to go for the sickly sweet or what has been defined as "schmaltzy" that makes most of McCartney's work unlistenable to me. Whereas, I am quite happy listening to say, early Led Zep or Cream for great basslines.

Despite that, I don't think there is anything wrong with virtuosity as long as it is directed in the pursuit of music. As there are virtuoso violinists and cellists, so there are virtuoso double bassists who don't have accusations of onanism levelled at them in the Classical world. I don't see why we can't have virtuoso bass guitarists.

[sundog]

Good point.
I also think that McCartney may be thought of as overrated as a bass player simply because he was so popular as a pop musician.
Had he been in any other band, this whole discussion may be moot.
I very seldom listen to him now and haven't for years. I would rather listen to John Paul Jones any day, but P Mac did have an influence...like it or not.