People who say they "play" bass / guitar

[natselection]

I don't know if the scenario is the same with you guys but around here, alot of people claim that they can play bass. but all they do is read tabs and assume that because they read tabs, they play bass. its also the same with guitarists who 99% of their playing is through tabs, and then they think they are amazing. what happened to the humble spirit in musicians? (i think it existed once). i don't know if i'm the only one, but it really pisses me off when someone claims that they know an instrument based on their tab reading ability. that goes on alot around here, but that could also be because i'm still in high school and everyone just has to play a rock instrument in high school. oh and it also annoys me when people assume bass is easier than guitar in a band. it sometimes IS easier, like when covering most songs, but i look at the bassist as a constant soloist throughout the whole piece...he/she improvises a skeletal structure for the band or group to follow and in that sense, bass is just as hard as guitar, if not harder. i know there was a thread dedicated to the difficulties...but i just wanted to see if you guys agree with me in general...this thread came out of a conversation i had with a guitarist recently...about 5 minutes ago..

what happened to learning songs by ear?

[darkblack99]

Oh, do I have an opinion on this

Bass is a calling, a religion in where you are the church and the sacrament is the touch of flesh to steel. Bass is the drive, the push, the pull, the momentum that propels the song to the top of the roof of Heaven and beneath the Plutonian chasms.

'Them that feel it, know it'...A wisdom that surpasses understanding, an attraction felt only by those whom nature has gifted with the urge to become the role and not merely a playactor.

I've seen all kinds of dabblers play an instrument all kinds of ways, but they don't get it because they don't have it to be got...They would do better to hone their craft on the instrument that has chosen them and stop making falsehoods with their fingers.

...And never trust a player who hasn't learned at least one tune by ear. After all, if they don't believe their ears, why should you?

[Grueber]

Originally Posted by natselection

oh and it also annoys me when people assume bass is easier than guitar in a band.

I really hate that one too. I'm surprised at how many people actually ask me that question. Of course i set them straight, and tell them that it's up to the individual bassist to decide if wants to be extremely good at his instrument or not.

What's scary is that for every person who asks that question, there is probably 10 times as many other people thinking it.

[5intheface]

I agree to some degree. I know alot of jokers who think they're hot **** for playing some Les Claypool licks out of a tab book, but I just don't take them seriously.

In my books, unless you're an established musical genius like Paul McCartney or Jeff Beck, you have to read music to be a good musician. Otherwise, you're probably a hack.

Granted like those two there are amazing guys who work solely by ear, but you just got to read music to be a musician. You have to be literate if you're an english teacher, it's the same deal. You have to know the language.

[eboe]

Originally Posted by 5intheface

I agree to some degree. I know alot of jokers who think they're hot **** for playing some Les Claypool licks out of a tab book, but I just don't take them seriously.

In my books, unless you're an established musical genius like Paul McCartney or Jeff Beck, you have to read music to be a good musician. Otherwise, you're probably a hack.

Granted like those two there are amazing guys who work solely by ear, but you just got to read music to be a musician. You have to be literate if you're an english teacher, it's the same deal. You have to know the language.

fighting words. never learned to read music, i pickedup the bass and the guitar to WRITE songs. I learned ones by my favorite bands, by EAR, and wrapped all of that up into my own style. But I use a pick too, so I must be the antichrist, eh? Oh, did I mention I play chords sometimes too?

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by 5intheface

I agree to some degree. I know alot of jokers who think they're hot **** for playing some Les Claypool licks out of a tab book, but I just don't take them seriously.

In my books, unless you're an established musical genius like Paul McCartney or Jeff Beck, you have to read music to be a good musician. Otherwise, you're probably a hack.

Granted like those two there are amazing guys who work solely by ear, but you just got to read music to be a musician. You have to be literate if you're an english teacher, it's the same deal. You have to know the language.

Wow!! Careful with a broad statement like that. Your kinda new around here so I'll go easy on ya. But there are some "hacks" as you put it here at TB that can play their asses off.

And what about the guys that are not "established" yet?? What really is the difference between them and the two that you cited??
Outside of the fact that in todays musical enivironment, getting a record deal and getting your stuff in front of the public like yourself, is next to impossible.

Being an OK karaoki singer (Americain Idol) seems to be a quicker outlet to fame than being a schooled musician.
So besides the record deal, there is really a very small difference between Joe Blow who lives around the corner playing his bass and one of the two you mentioned.

BTW, see my sig under my avatar.

[DWBass]

I think ear training is an absolutely mandatory part of learning to play any instrument! Even more so than learning to read music! Reading music is important as well but if you cannot hear harmonies, grooves and chord structures in relation from one instrument to another, just being able to read music or read tab is useless, IMO!

I learned by ear and played for at least 10 years before taking lessons. But in all honesty, I was playing other instruments and already knew how to read a little bit beforehand!

[Akami]

Originally Posted by 5intheface

In my books, unless you're an established musical genius like Paul McCartney or Jeff Beck, you have to read music to be a good musician. Otherwise, you're probably a hack.

Granted like those two there are amazing guys who work solely by ear, but you just got to read music to be a musician. You have to be literate if you're an english teacher, it's the same deal. You have to know the language.

Damn, I forgot how to read years ago, but just as long as none of the club owners find out I guess I can keep faking it.

Actually I'm pretty mediocre, both playing and singing, but it gets the job done and although I know it would benefit me to know theory and read, I haven't done it.

However there are many people who can speak effectively and in an entertaining manner who have never learned to read.

So, although I'm not proud to admit I can't read charts, I still feel like a musician, and have played all over 8 states, 3 Canadian provinces and 3 Japanese prefectures.

Maybe it's time to go hit some books...

[Suckbird]

you need to be more respectful of others on this forum, Suckbird!

[grayhawk1853]

I AGREE THAT BEING ABLE TO READ MUSIC CAN BE A POSITIVE. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE. I HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR 37 YEARS AND STILL HAVE NOT LEARNED. I KNOW WHERE THE NOTES ARE ON THE FRETBOARD AND I HAVE AN EAR FOR WHERE A SONG IS GOING. OUR KEYBOARD PLAYER SAYS HIS IMPROVISATIONAL SKILLS ARE BETTER WHEN HE IS NOT RELYING ON PAPER. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO READ MUSIC FOR THE PORPUSE OF KNOWING HOW A SONG SHOULD SOUND WITHOUT LISTENING TO IT. I PLAY WITH A GROUP OF SKILLED MUSICIANS, (SOME HALF MY AGE) EVERY SUNDAY FOR 2 SERVICES AND HAVE BEEN HOLDING MY OWN FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS. I PRACTICE FOR 1 TO 2 HOURS DAILY AND WHEN SUNDAY ROLLS AROUND THERE ARE NO CORD CHARTS OR NOTES ON PAPER TO DISTRACT ME WHILE I AM PLAYING. READING MUSIC IS NICE BUT NOT MANDATORY. IMO

[john turner]

Originally Posted by 5intheface

I agree to some degree. I know alot of jokers who think they're hot **** for playing some Les Claypool licks out of a tab book, but I just don't take them seriously.

In my books, unless you're an established musical genius like Paul McCartney or Jeff Beck, you have to read music to be a good musician. Otherwise, you're probably a hack.

Granted like those two there are amazing guys who work solely by ear, but you just got to read music to be a musician. You have to be literate if you're an english teacher, it's the same deal. You have to know the language.

while i agree with the sentiment, i have to challenge the delivery. you make comments like "hack" and "your book" and without any baseline comparative data about your perspective (i.e. a recording of yourself) these comments are hard to take in any way other than just insults to those who don't read.

if that is the intent - (calling all illiterate musicians poopooheads) - then that's cool. it's the internet, takes all kinds. but if it is not the intent, then right about now i'd say "put up or shut up".

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by grayhawk1853

I AGREE THAT BEING ABLE TO READ MUSIC CAN BE A POSITIVE. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE. I HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR 37 YEARS AND STILL HAVE NOT LEARNED. I KNOW WHERE THE NOTES ARE ON THE FRETBOARD AND I HAVE AN EAR FOR WHERE A SONG IS GOING. OUR KEYBOARD PLAYER SAYS HIS IMPROVISATIONAL SKILLS ARE BETTER WHEN HE IS NOT RELYING ON PAPER. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO READ MUSIC FOR THE PORPUSE OF KNOWING HOW A SONG SHOULD SOUND WITHOUT LISTENING TO IT. I PLAY WITH A GROUP OF SKILLED MUSICIANS, (SOME HALF MY AGE) EVERY SUNDAY FOR 2 SERVICES AND HAVE BEEN HOLDING MY OWN FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS. I PRACTICE FOR 1 TO 2 HOURS DAILY AND WHEN SUNDAY ROLLS AROUND THERE ARE NO CORD CHARTS OR NOTES ON PAPER TO DISTRACT ME WHILE I AM PLAYING. READING MUSIC IS NICE BUT NOT MANDATORY. IMO

The key has the words "CAPS LOCK" on it. There's a little light on the keyboard to indicate when it is on. Make sure that light is not on when you type. Thank you.

Back to the thread..... What really annoys me is when people force their definition of "musicianship" on others, judgding others to "not be musicians" or be "false musicians" because they don't play or read in the "proper" way.

If it sounds good, it is good. That's the simple reality of music. It's not a competition.

[barthanatos]

Hi grayhawk, and welcome to TalkBass. Typing with your caps lock on is the internet equivalent of shouting. Typing normally, while requiring a little extra effort, will make people more interested in what you have to say.

Thanks,
Chris

[PaulMacCnj]

You're in for a big surprise when you learn how many professional musicians don't read music. Reading is nice but thinking that's the utmost criteria for being a musician is like saying that a person who reads the National Electrical Code is automatically an electrician. That's far from the truth.

Paul Mac

[Jon Simonoff]

How I look at it, is that it doesn't matter either way. All that matters is how you play. I know musicians that can't read at all, and they can really rip it up. I also know musicians who are great readers and can do the same. It's more important to play what you want, how you want instead of focusing on if you can read or not. I do read music, and I like that much more than trying to follow tabs (plus, there are no tabs when playing in an orchestra, hehe). All I could say for me personally that reading makes it better when learning a lot of new music without having to hear them or have someone show them to me. An old guitar player who I know said it like this "I may be able to play 100 songs, but I can't read music so you can probably play a thousand before I learn 500 more." Don't take this as some mathematical formula or anything, but I think unless you have really good ears (which is something everyone should train to do), reading music can be a more efficient way to learn new music. That's about all there is to it though. If someone reads music but never practices, then the guy who doesn't read but plays 6 hours a day will be a much better sounding, more fluid, and player.

[Suckbird]

Originally Posted by Jon Simonoff

"I may be able to play 100 songs, but I can't read music so you can probably play a thousand before I learn 500 more.

yeah, of course... if all you do is play cover songs then reading might be very useful... but you know, the best musicians i know dont play covers, they play the music they wrote all by themself..

[Jon Simonoff]

Yes.

The original post in the thread was talking about guys who read internet tabs and say they play bass though. So I was aiming that toward that comment.

[jasonbraatz]

Originally Posted by grayhawk1853

I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO READ MUSIC FOR THE PORPUSE

?

[Audiophage]

I jam with this guy who can't read a note of music, but he has an amazing sense for music, and plays some amazing things(not just technical, but musical) on electric guitar.

Basically, reading music won't give you natural talent, but being able to read at least chord charts will get you more gigs and maybe, just maybe, be able to express your talent more. Oh, and being able to read should never replace the ability to pick up music by ear.

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by Suckbird

you need to be more respectful of others on this forum, Suckbird!

Man, I really want to know what he said!!!