Phil Lesh Appreciation Society: Enter the Philzone...

[jhuss88]

Definitely balder. haha.

Yeah, he nails pretty much anything he sings. All four of us sing, but when he is, it's easiest for me to sit back and just straight groove.

[Vince Klortho]

I highly recommend checking out the Long Story of Alembic's History. They began working with the Dead and it is amazing how much stuff they actually invented.

[baba]

Sorry, late to the party fellas. Did someone save me a spot on the rail?

[Rev J]

Originally Posted by spacebassed

With all due respect to the folks at Hard Truckers - they make quality stuff, but I find that cab ridiculously overpriced. If you want the late '60's/early '70's Phil/Casady sound for that price you could find a Fender Dual Showman and a Sunn cab loaded with JBL D140f's.

It's funny I tried out a rack mount bass pod (which the last time I got close enough to see Phil's rig he was using too) and the 2 presets I liked the best were called "For the love of $" and "The Fish" and they were both based on Dual Showmans.

The problem lies in the fact that I use a Fender Steve Bailey Jazz Bass with 18 volt actives and I'd be afraid of either blowing that Dual Showman or having no low end.

One idea I had was an old meets new approach. I have a GK 800RB that I bought off a homeless dude for $40 that needs to be fixed. I was thinking about running a 2x15 off the 300 watt low end power amp and a 2x12 guitar cab off the 100 watt high end power amp. Maybe run a tube compressor and parametric EQ in the effects loop to give me a little classic funkiness mixed with modern zing.

I'm sorry I got a little off topic with that little rant.

C/S,
Rev J

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Rev J

It's funny I tried out a rack mount bass pod (which the last time I got close enough to see Phil's rig he was using too) and the 2 presets I liked the best were called "For the love of $" and "The Fish" and they were both based on Dual Showmans.

I always wondered what settings he was using on that.

The problem lies in the fact that I use a Fender Steve Bailey Jazz Bass with 18 volt actives and I'd be afraid of either blowing that Dual Showman or having no low end.

You can't blow the Showman on the basis of what you put in the front end short of giving it a speaker level signal. It will have plenty of low end if you use efficient cabinets.

One idea I had was an old meets new approach. I have a GK 800RB that I bought off a homeless dude for $40 that needs to be fixed. I was thinking about running a 2x15 off the 300 watt low end power amp and a 2x12 guitar cab off the 100 watt high end power amp. Maybe run a tube compressor and parametric EQ in the effects loop to give me a little classic funkiness mixed with modern zing.

C/S,
Rev J

That might be a fun way to to go! The GK rating, though, might be optimistic and there's no guarantee that you end up with a bigger sound than a Showman. By the time you get all that together, though, you might be better off with a used Eden or something similar.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by spacebassed

With all due respect to the folks at Hard Truckers - they make quality stuff, but I find that cab ridiculously overpriced. If you want the late '60's/early '70's Phil/Casady sound for that price you could find a Fender Dual Showman and a Sunn cab loaded with JBL D140f's.

Hard Truckers might be a little pricey, but if you going to find a Showman and Sunn of the right vintage and put them into good operating shape, you might be looking at similar money. I got my '67 Showman for $150 but that was back in 1991. They are considerably more expensive now. I'd love to find a Sunn 200s cabinet with JBLs, but they have been close to $1k every time I've seen one here in Colorado. That's just silly. It's just easier to build something and make it what you want. Greenboy has a double 15 that looks interesting that would be cheaper than a HT and probably cheaper than a Sunn and more reliable than the latter.

[preside]

Sign me up!! I love the guy. I play a 65 Starfire with TI Flats thru a pair of 12"s and a GB Shuttle 6.2. It sounds real good.

[zfunkman]

I'm in. Love Phil and miss Jerry.

[spacebassed]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Hard Truckers might be a little pricey, but if you going to find a Showman and Sunn of the right vintage and put them into good operating shape, you might be looking at similar money. I got my '67 Showman for $150 but that was back in 1991. They are considerably more expensive now. I'd love to find a Sunn 200s cabinet with JBLs, but they have been close to $1k every time I've seen one here in Colorado. That's just silly. It's just easier to build something and make it what you want. Greenboy has a double 15 that looks interesting that would be cheaper than a HT and probably cheaper than a Sunn and more reliable than the latter.

That's what I meant, that for the same money as the Hard Truckers cab (likely less), you could have the same setup - cab AND amp - that Phil/Jack used. I know that would be my preference if I were looking for that sound. I agree about $1k being too much for a Sunn 200s/2000s cabinet, I've seen them sell for around half that (sometimes even less, but not the JBL loaded ones). There was a Blackface Showman for $550 on the local craigslist last month that I had to resist buying. Those are great amps, especially compared to the prices of Blackface Princetons, Deluxes, and Supers. They work great as a basis for a Jerry tone as well, just add an Electro-Harmonix Holy Grail for some reverb. Those old Sunn cabs were about as good as it gets for a bass cab from that era, but cab technology has come a long way since then. Does Greenboy have any tweeterless designs?


Rev J, I ran a bass with an 18v EMG preamp through my old Showman and it sounded great. Like Edwin says, it will be fine - the only thing you might notice is that you can push the amp into distortion sooner by slamming the frontend with a high gain signal, but you can do the same with a high output passive pickup. It may not be worth it to have your GK repaired, you can get used ones pretty cheap and paying for repairs gets pricey fast. I've seen some killer deals on some Edens now that everyone is using micro amps.

[Dave Klausner]

Phil has had many different tones over the years, and each tone tends to work only in context. I played in Dead bands back in the 80s, and just got back into it a few years ago. I find that both the tones I can use and the aspects of Phil's playing, such as I'm capable of, only work in certain places. One of the hallmarks of his tone has always tended to be the cutting of frequencies for a "tighter" sound. He likes to be loud and up front, but there are only so many frequencies that aren't already being taken in a band with 2 guitarists, keys, and usually 2 drummers. Those available frequencies morphed over time in the bands he played with, and so his tone changed as well. Similarly, a line he would play in 1968 might not have fit in 1977 or 1989. As with any improvisational music, it's all about what fits with the rest of the music.

As for his playing style, he has always mixed very short staccato notes with longer ones, and plays melodic lines that reflect his background as a horn player (phrasing and "function" in the music) and a composition student (long lines that have an internal logic to them rather than just short licks or phrases).

I'm really interested to hear some of the other folks who play in Dead bands. Every "Jerry" seems to gravitate toward certain aspects of his playing, but Phil's playing can be so mysterious (he does a lot of stuff that makes me say "that worked, but I have no idea why, and I doubt I could have made that work") that I'm really curious to hear what other folks are doing.

Here's a clip of my band (albeit a few personnel changes ago):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f_DL-m5L34

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by spacebassed

Does Greenboy have any tweeterless designs?

Absolutely. In fact, the original fEARful design is tweeter optional.

Closer to the original concept, a 2x15, is the dually:
Here's one builder's take on it: http://www.gigmaster.biz/gigmaster_s...rks_v3_008.htm

It's worth registering over at the fEARful forum. (http://greenboy.us/forum/index.php). There's a lot more going on than fEARful cabinets and some very good resources on speakers of all kinds. The days of buying from the standard bass cab manufacturers are long gone.

[StephenR]

Hadn't previously noticed this thread...

Big Phil/GD fan. First show was 6/21/69 Fillmore East but I had been listening to the records since the first one was released in 67. I initially liked Phil's playing not only for the concepts and note placement but the tone. My first influences who made me want to play the bass were Brian Wilson and Chris Hillman. I always liked the sound of a bass played with a pick and bass lines that were melodic.

I have had the opportunity to play lots of GD music over the years with some really good musicians.

Currently playing mostly my Cocabolo topped 2003 G. Gould five-string with a wood neck and EMG pickups that were specially designed for Geoff. Also always bring my 88 Modulus Quantum TBX five-string with custom Alembic pickups and electronics. Neck on that one is too narrow for me these days so it doesn't get played as much. My first five-string was a 1978 Alembic series one with a Brazilian Rosewood top and back. Too heavy and neck also too narrow for me so this one sits in the closet but I really like Alembic pickups and electronics.

To me emulating Phil's tone comes more from fingers and the way you play than gear but you also need a rig with a wide and clean frequency response.

Current rig for me is a Avalon U5 into an Eden Navigator pre then out to a Crest CA6. I was using a single JBL Cabaret series cabinet (with E140) and an Eden 4x10XLT but recently picked up an Eden 2x10XST cabinet which I now use with two JBL Cabaret series 15s. When you stack the two JBLs they couple in a real nice way and give you a big sound even at lower volumes. My rack also has a 70s vintage Alembic F2B pre as a spare.

I have had the two JBLs since I got them new in the early 80s and always thought they were one of the best sounding single 15 cabs. They are similar in design to the Hard Trucker cabs but can be found used for next to no money. I used to use them with a Bag End 2x10 cab along with the pre-amp section of an SWR Studio 220 run through BGW power amps.

There are some examples of my playing on the CRYPTICAL website on the media page. We didn't play much in 2012 since most of us have been playing with Stu Allen and Mars Hotel (which features a rotating lineup) but we hope to have some CRYPTICAL gigs on the calendar soon.
http://www.crypticalband.com

[edwinhurwitz]

Enjoying the Furthur stream from the Sweetwater. http://www.tristudios.com/events/fur...ter-music-hall

[walknbluez]

And it is kicking major ass!

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Enjoying the Furthur stream from the Sweetwater. http://www.tristudios.com/events/fur...ter-music-hall

[StephenR]

Sweetwater streams have been nice. Excellent quality!

[edwinhurwitz]

I'm really liking the tone with the Q-tuner pickups.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

I'm really liking the tone with the Q-tuner pickups.

I haven't paid any attention to Phil's equipment in years, in all honesty. Do you know which Q-Tuners he's using Edwin? I've been looking forward to sightings of the new models.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

I haven't paid any attention to Phil's equipment in years, in all honesty. Do you know which Q-Tuners he's using Edwin? I've been looking forward to sightings of the new models.

I don't know for sure. My information is all second hand filtered through Mike Gordon. My guess is that they are either the older ones or preproduction versions of the new ones. I know that's not helpful, but if you ask Q-tuner themselves or Modulus, they might tell you.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

I don't know for sure. My information is all second hand filtered through Mike Gordon. My guess is that they are either the older ones or preproduction versions of the new ones. I know that's not helpful, but if you ask Q-tuner themselves or Modulus, they might tell you.

Thanks, and no worries. I already have a pair of the old soapbar format ones, I dig 'em.

[edwinhurwitz]

Here's a picture, if that helps.