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05-17-2006, 03:05 PM
| | | | Phil Lesh - Dozin at the Knick
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Because of my band members, I'm starting to really appreciate the Grateful Dead. Phil Lesh is incredible. He has a great ability to hold down the low end and still include those cool fills and runs. While listening to a lot of Dead music, there's one song that really stands out for me; "Row Jimmy" on "Dozin at the Knick". Does anyone know which bass guitar Phil played on that? A Modulus? The tone is so cool.
Paul Mac |
05-17-2006, 03:10 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: NJ | | | The pictures in the CD booklet looks like a Ken Smith. Phil did use a Smith before his Modulus. |
05-17-2006, 03:54 PM
| | | | Just threw it on to check it out, definitely sounds like the Ken Smith to me.
His Smith tone is quite unique. I've never heard anyone else aim for that kind of sound out of a Smith. With the pic and the eq'ing he uses it has an incredibly deep, yet crisp attack and a huge mid-scoop. Oddly, though, when he plays higher fills on the neck the upper-mids seem to come back into his tone. I don't love the tone from this era, but I find it intriguing nonetheless. I'm more of a 70's Phil-tone type of guy (both the Big Brown hollowbody days and the later solid-body Alembic days).
As far as Phil's playing. He's the reason I picked up the bass to begin with. I think his playing is brilliant.
Last edited by rontalsaurus : 05-17-2006 at 03:56 PM.
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05-17-2006, 04:29 PM
| | | I saw Dark Star Orchestra a couple of weeks ago and they recreated a 1978 show. Bassist Kevin Rosen played a Fender Precision through an Eden rig. The band played "Row Jimmy" and the thumpy P-bass sound combined with the Eden warmth was simply beautiful.
Paul Mac Quote: |
Originally Posted by rontalsaurus I'm more of a 70's Phil-tone type of guy (both the Big Brown hollowbody days and the later solid-body Alembic days).
As far as Phil's playing. He's the reason I picked up the bass to begin with. I think his playing is brilliant. | |
05-17-2006, 04:49 PM
| | Howzit brah | | Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Kauai, HI | | | Lesh is more and Phil is Still the man. I think he's more of a composer playing bass than just a bass player..or something like that. I've got an old recording somewhere from his high school jazz band way back in the 50's - he composed all the music and played lead trumpet I believe (or some other horn). I dig his old Alembic tones and he even played some sweet fretless in the late 70's I think. He's obviously passed the torch to Mike Gordon but talk about a dying breed.
Ever hear Phil play Phish's Down with Disease? haha.
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The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
Hunter S. Thompson
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05-17-2006, 04:53 PM
| | | | I don't think he ever played a fretless with the Dead. I think that's a misconception due to the fact that he had those killer sliding lines in the late 70's (Scarlet, Estimated, etc). |
05-17-2006, 04:56 PM
| | Howzit brah | | Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Kauai, HI | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by rontalsaurus I don't think he ever played a fretless with the Dead. I think that's a misconception due to the fact that he had those killer sliding lines in the late 70's (Scarlet, Estimated, etc). | granted it wasn't on an album or anything but I beg to differ - I'll have to check it out though...
__________________
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
Hunter S. Thompson
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05-17-2006, 08:06 PM
| | | | I'll get back to you on this, I need to do a little research. But, I'm sticking to my guns on this one. I'm damn near certain that Phil never played a fretless with the Dead up until around '94...and even then only for the odd benefit or some such alterna-gig.
I'm pretty damn certain that he didn't play a fretless during the period from '77-'78 (including the much lauded Ithaca '77 show), as that was the high-water mark for his solidbody Alembic sound. |
05-17-2006, 09:27 PM
| | | Woah! Those are superb performances and great recordings. Thanks for posting the link. Quote: |
Originally Posted by Muzique Fann and here's another mention of it in '77 (great year for the dead by the way - 77 and 78 were my favorites with 5-8-77 @ Cornell being their best show ever IMO - they were just on fire that run) http://web1.nugs.net/attics/77may_mp3_home.asp | |
05-18-2006, 09:28 AM
| | | So far, I've found nothing about Phil playing a fretless with the band.
What I have found concerns the Gulid mentioned above. This is from the Guild guitar forum: Quote:
There were 3 custom instruments made by Guild in '68 for the Dead. This was for Phil. Top (spruce) and back (maple) are carved. The neck is a 3 piece running straight through the body, not touching the top or back until the butt of the instrument, where the bridge is sunk into it. I thought this was Owsley's idea (hence it appearing in the Guild Guitars book as a fact) but Mark Dronge tells me it was his, discussed in a limo ride from NYC to NJ w/Jerry, Phil and Weir.
Rick Turner meets the Youngblood's secretary in '69 shortly after his arrival in SF (where thru old pal Banana he meets Jesse Colin Young and does an inlay for him). She introduces him to Lesh who commissions an inlay on this fretless bass, introducing him to Bear and Ron Wickersham, and so Alembic is born.
Phil discovers he can't use the bass for some reason - maybe he doesn't relate to fretless. It sits at Alembic on Brady St. til '73 being used as a test bed for different electronic ideas.
| Those shows from Spring tour '77 are definitely NOT a fretless. |
05-18-2006, 03:20 PM
| | | | From elsewhere on the web, I've learned that Alembic did make a prototype fretless for Phil in the late 70's. However, Phil never took to it and ended up approving its sale to a fan.
Also, he used flatwounds at that time, which would help explain the smoothness of the slides. |
05-18-2006, 04:38 PM
| | Howzit brah | | Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Kauai, HI | | | good stuff rontalsaurus - I wasn't trying to be an ass, just seems to be a lot of confused people out there (and I guess I'm one of them, haha).
__________________
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
Hunter S. Thompson
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05-18-2006, 05:28 PM
| | | | The Guild is a fretless custom M-85. I did the inlay on it in 1969, but Phil never liked the bass with whatever we did to it electronically based on the original Starfire pickups. Phil gave the instrument to Dan Schwartz around 1972 or so, and much later I put custom piezo pickups on it along with Thomastik Acousticore strings. It now (finally!) sounds right, and Dan used that bass on the big Tuesday Night Music Club album with Sheryl Crow.
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Rick Turner, Luthier
Renaissance Guitars and Basses
D-TAR
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05-18-2006, 07:12 PM
| | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Rick Turner The Guild is a fretless custom M-85. I did the inlay on it in 1969, but Phil never liked the bass with whatever we did to it electronically based on the original Starfire pickups. Phil gave the instrument to Dan Schwartz around 1972 or so, and much later I put custom piezo pickups on it along with Thomastik Acousticore strings. It now (finally!) sounds right, and Dan used that bass on the big Tuesday Night Music Club album with Sheryl Crow. | Hi Rick!
It's an honor to get the story from you!
Love your work! |
05-18-2006, 07:13 PM
| | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Muzique Fann good stuff rontalsaurus - I wasn't trying to be an ass, just seems to be a lot of confused people out there (and I guess I'm one of them, haha). | didn't think you were being an ass...just wanted to get to the bottom of this.
Still diggin... |
05-18-2006, 07:20 PM
| | | | Rick,
You wouldn't happen to know what the electronis in Big Brown and the Osage Orange bass were do you? Aside from the quadrophonic set-up, I've always wanted to know exactly what all of those knobs were. I've heard that there are a multitude of various low-pass and band-pass filters on there, but I'm not exactly sure what they all did and what the difference tonally is when you tweak a filter vs. a shelving or parametric EQ.
Thanks,
Andy |
05-23-2006, 05:22 PM
| | | | They have state variable filters in them with separate controls for each regular pickup for direct volume and filter volume...which would be better done with a blend wet/dry knob in my opinion. Each filter can be a low pass, high pass, band pass, notch, and then there was a tilt response band pass as well. Then there's a frequency control and a Q control for each filter. Then there's all the switching for the quad pickups, etc.
I made the pickups for both of those basses, and Ron Wickersham did the electronics on Big Brown and George Mundy did them for the Koa/Osage bass. I did the custom woodwork and hardware on Big Brown and built the Koa/Osage & did all the inlay work as well.
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Rick Turner, Luthier
Renaissance Guitars and Basses
D-TAR
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05-24-2006, 03:55 AM
| | | Allow me, Rick.
Here's the afore mentioned Guild. 
Somewhere I've got a photo of what it looks like now. Not nearly as beautiful as it was but the sound is now miles beyond, according to Dan. He played it on the Letterman show last month with Roseanne Cash. It can be heard on here new album as well. | | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | 
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