A possible reason that it's hard to copy Entwistle's tone.

WarriorJoe7 · #1 01-21-2008, 02:22 AM

Or atleast the LIVE AT LEEDS tone.

I have a PODxt PRO and there is a setting called live at leeds. When I play along with a p bass plugged in it's pretty damn convincing, though I wouldn't have been able to dial it in myself.

Now don't get me wrong, LIVE AT LEEDS is probably my most favorite live show for hearing the bass, for both his incredible lines and the incredible tone... BUT the tone isolated by itself just doesn't sound that good... no really... I'll tell you I sound incredible with the few lines of that album I can actually play but as soon as I turn off the recording the tone sounds like doo-doo. So maybe that is a reason why it is so hard to copy... It sounds like crap soloed.

Now I have seen him isolated in some shows in 78 (8 years after Leeds) and his tone when isolated is much better. And this is in keeping with what it says in whotabs.com about him getting away from the treble some in the mid seventies (to get out of a rut or something.)

Truly the LEEDS tone is quite bright and sounds really harsh alone... or atleast that is my experience... I agree that it is sweet bliss in the context of the concert though. I love the setting on my PODxt PRO but only when I am playing along.

Kink Rimson · #2 01-21-2008, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorJoe7

Truly the LEEDS tone is quite bright and sounds really harsh alone... or atleast that is my experience... I agree that it is sweet bliss in the context of the concert though. I love the setting on my PODxt PRO but only when I am playing along.

By 'LEEDS tone' you are referring to the POD interpretation, not the actual tone. I tried this setting out when mucking about with a mate's POD and I was very disappointed with the result, it seemed to suck all the guts from my sound and was far too distorted.

WarriorJoe7 · #3 01-21-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kink Rimson

By 'LEEDS tone' you are referring to the POD interpretation, not the actual tone. I tried this setting out when mucking about with a mate's POD and I was very disappointed with the result, it seemed to suck all the guts from my sound and was far too distorted.

Did you try playing along the recording with it... because it sounds almost perfect to me.

bobyoung53 · #4 01-21-2008, 02:32 PM

I saw him a few years before he died, twice in little clubs with his own band, once at his level from about 10 ft away. One of the surprises I got was to realize how light his touch was especially when he did triplets, he played so light it was almost like a butterfly's wings touching the strings. He also used a LOT of volume which is at least aprtially why he could play with such a light touch. I also think a big part of his sound back in the Live At Leads days were his Rottone RS-66 strings and jacking the treble way up. Rottone strings have a very harsh sound IMHO anyway, harsh with no bottom which is probably what he was looking for when he help them design them, he wanted a piano string sound and that's what he got.

Matt Till · #5 01-21-2008, 06:31 PM

Excuse me for being skeptical, but I doubt a POD could faithfully reproduce a rig as bad ass as the Live at Leeds rig.

But a lot of times, bass that sounds amazing in the mix will sound lousy soloed, and visa versa: You could have the best tone in the world jamming alone in your bedroom, but if you try that tone against a band, it might sound muddy/terrible.

nysbob · #6 01-21-2008, 07:40 PM

Rottone?

No digital modeler can reproduce an angry HiWatt.

Period.

jenderfazz · #7 01-21-2008, 11:16 PM

Check out isolated tracks by Macca or Jamerson, they don't sound all that good by themselves. The same way scooped mids sound good when you're by yourself, but aren't a good way to be heard in the mix. The mix is an entirely different beast.

I always exaggerate my higher frequencies (especially high mids) when recording, because a lot of it goes away in the mix. Those that have very gritty tone must, by consequence, have "too much" treble and mids.

Hoover · #8 01-22-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenderfazz

I always exaggerate my higher frequencies (especially high mids) when recording, because a lot of it goes away in the mix

...probably because the mix engineer says "Whoa, I'd better dial out those high mids, they are way too exaggerated!"

nysbob · #9 01-22-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenderfazz

Check out isolated tracks by Macca or Jamerson, they don't sound all that good by themselves. The same way scooped mids sound good when you're by yourself, but aren't a good way to be heard in the mix. The mix is an entirely different beast.

I always exaggerate my higher frequencies (especially high mids) when recording, because a lot of it goes away in the mix. Those that have very gritty tone must, by consequence, have "too much" treble and mids.

That's interesting - I do just the opposite. I use a much brighter sound on stage than I do in recording...the reason being that within a recording you can absolutely control the bass and put it right where you want it. Live you're always fighting mushy room sound, uncompressed cymbals and the like, so I use more top than I actually like to make the thing articulate better. Most of the shows I've seen lately have had bottom heavy, murky, ill-defined bass - part of that's the player and part the FOH engineer.

Baryonyx · #10 01-22-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorJoe7

Did you try playing along the recording with it... because it sounds almost perfect to me.

Seems like it's one tone that's better suited to being taken out of the bedroom!

WarriorJoe7 · #11 01-22-2008, 02:41 PM

I politely dissent... Just because it is a digital modeler doesn't mean it can't be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysbob

Rottone?

No digital modeler can reproduce an angry HiWatt.

Period.

lambro · #12 01-22-2008, 04:59 PM

did you just use the words "POD" "ENTWISTLE" AND "LEEDS" all in the same question...

there's your problem son....

now if you brought up the Pye Mobile that would have counted for something

nysbob · #13 01-22-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorJoe7

I politely dissent... Just because it is a digital modeler doesn't mean it can't be done.

The reason it can't is because it takes a snapshot of one thing - one set of EQ and overdrive parameters.

Anyone who has played through that sort of rig would tell you "it's alive". Different notes will sound different through it - some might feedback a little due to shear volume, and the sound changes drastically with player dynamics.

I will grant you nothing is impossible and emulation technology has come a long way, but I've yet to play through any unit that had the dynamic range and complexity of the real article.

jerry · #14 01-23-2008, 04:03 AM

Don't forget a lot of Leeds era Entwistle is a pick.

WarriorJoe7 · #15 01-23-2008, 08:52 AM

Actually I disagree with this and I can give specific examples to back it up... 2 songs from live at Leeds

On eyesight to the blind, on the opening bass line when he hits the low G it has a really angry tone... well my pod pro actually does that.

Now on the flip side, on "Tommy can you hear me" on the line that ends that song when he hits the D an B on the way down the G string it has a certain sound... and I can get that sound on the podxt.

Now I have noticed on my old Pod Pro that the dynamics werenn't quite there but the podxt pro is more dynamic.

So there I have given you examples of low notes and high notes on the PodXT pro that cop the real thing. I don't know if I can convince myself more than that. Wish you could hear it yourself but you'll have to go try it yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysbob

The reason it can't is because it takes a snapshot of one thing - one set of EQ and overdrive parameters.

Anyone who has played through that sort of rig would tell you "it's alive". Different notes will sound different through it - some might feedback a little due to shear volume, and the sound changes drastically with player dynamics.

I will grant you nothing is impossible and emulation technology has come a long way, but I've yet to play through any unit that had the dynamic range and complexity of the real article.