The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 22

[mtb777]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Sorry man, out of the office today and tomorrow!

.........and they shall be known by their LOVE!

[cvsurg]

Originally Posted by skamaniac

Great to be part of the group guys!



Not our best night musically, but at least the bass is audible in the mix...When does that ever happen!

Signal chain on this Video was:
Yamaha BB1025X -> Zoom B3 (160COMP/Bottom B/Eden Head Sim.) -> Radial JDI

Playing with only the bridge pickup engaged.

Sounded great! What settings on the Zoom B3 were you using? Maybe I don't understand the benefits of the Radial JDI, but would have using the balanced out XLR connection on the B3 been adequate? I've got a B3, and am wondering about using it as a DI to FOH to 'flavor' things up a bit.

[AaronWarren]

I just have used the JDI so long and it is on my board...so might as well use it! I know I can count on it. But out of the XLR would work too.

As for the settings, like I said I ran 100% bridge P/U on the bass. On the B3, it is actually a funny thing.. I really did not like the unit much at all, but when I was testing it in store there was one specific preset that I was in love with...just one!.. so I bought it thinking the other options and presets would grow on me...nope. Just had that one.

I think the original sound I modified off of was later in the presets and used a Bottom B, Flip Top & 160COMP.. I think this ended up being to boomy in the actual room and I changed to the eden head and tamed the EQ to taste. Unfortunately, I got rid of that unit a few months ago and can't remember everything exact. :\

[invalidprotocol]

Originally Posted by skamaniac

Great to be part of the group guys!

Here is a video from one of our services this summer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y0dJ0djxgo&t=1m9s

Not our best night musically, but at least the bass is audible in the mix...When does that ever happen!

Signal chain on this Video was:
Yamaha BB1025X -> Zoom B3 (160COMP/Bottom B/Eden Head Sim.) -> Radial JDI

Playing with only the bridge pickup engaged.


P.S. - Ignore the brain fart for the start of the chorus in Glory to the Highest where I must have been sucked into a different dimension and had no clue what notes to play..

Nice playing and great bass tone. Still sounds pretty thick for bridge only and cuts oh so nicely.

[AaronWarren]

Ya, it was one of those compensation/mix things... I rather like the bridge pickup on the Yamaha along with its clarity, but it has far too little bottom for our music, so I was able to compress then use a preamp setting to boost the bass and low mids to thicken things up, while still retaining some clarity. At the time I wasn't quite totally satisfied with my tone...especially being tied to the Zoom pedal to get it...but now that they gave me a recording of the night, I like the way it sat in the mix and recorded. Oh well... Now I am using my beloved BEAD Alembic. Hopefully I can get them to record this one night and compare.

[jmclearnon]

I would love to try and alembic to see what they are like...... Unfortunately there are not a great deal of them in the UK

[invalidprotocol]

Originally Posted by skamaniac

Ya, it was one of those compensation/mix things... I rather like the bridge pickup on the Yamaha along with its clarity, but it has far too little bottom for our music, so I was able to compress then use a preamp setting to boost the bass and low mids to thicken things up, while still retaining some clarity. At the time I wasn't quite totally satisfied with my tone...especially being tied to the Zoom pedal to get it...but now that they gave me a recording of the night, I like the way it sat in the mix and recorded. Oh well... Now I am using my beloved BEAD Alembic. Hopefully I can get them to record this one night and compare.

I haven't been much of a fan of the BB series bridge pickups till this recording. Kudos.

[invalidprotocol]

My worship pastor has brought up a discussion regarding variances in bass EQ between the 3 bassists that rotate and their basses. In his words, one bass has lots of lows and little else, one is lost in the mix and another has tons of growl but would like to hear more lows. Mine is the latter.

The problem is that it isn't consistent. On good sound day when they EQ my jazz right my lows are just about perfect. At those times he will say that it is the ideal bass mix and should be the standard.

We have a lot of issues with what is an old sound system as well as rotating sound volunteers so I know it is a struggle. He has suggested the possibility of securing a house bass that we would all use and and wanted to know how I felt about it.

I shared the practical issues with the idea as well as personal ones that would probably be mutual among the bassists. I suggested an EQing night in which each bassist would come up with their basses and EQ to similar sound levels, then document the settings. Alternatively I proposed some form of preamp to doctor the sound and eliminate the dryness of the direct to board setup we have and would be particularly nice if it was programmable to remember settings.

I totally understand the issue and the problem that needs to be solved. I'd rather see it resolved in the sound booth but as of today that seems to be a problem with skillset, freaky equipment and sound setup.

Plans are to upgrade the sound system completely but that won't be an immediate fix either. If you have faced these issues before, what things did you try and what ideas worked or didn't work? I'd like to go back into additional discussions with more than my own thoughts or ideas. Thanks!

[5StringFool]

^^^ My thoughts would be to get a house SansAmp Bass Driver deluxe. It would be cheaper than getting a bass, would allow up to 6 presets to be saved in order to match each bass, and would be more likely to get consistent results with the limited skillset of the sound volunteers.

[AaronWarren]

Well, I am not sure if there is a cut and dry answer here since there are some variables... First what basses is everyone using? Do the guys actually use new strings more than once every couple years..if not, is that "their" sound. If a guys gets his sound with a P-Bass and flatwounds or a Jazz bass and Stainless strings, you will end up in two very different places. There is plenty of variation of what all us bass players want our sound to be as it is...but for FOH guys they usually fall into two groups: Those who want to feel the bass and not hear the bass or those who want to actually hear the bass as an instrument. Most "feel the bass" guys have probably had to deal with an unfair amount of poor players that this was the fix for.

It is sort of like the same problem when recording..what sounds best from an amp might not sound best in the mix. I have heard a ton of amazing bass and guitar parts that when solo'ed from the sound booth sounded thin and not very good, but once in the mix with everything they sounded amazing.

I think a preamp for all bass players to use would be a good idea... there are a ton of outboard preamps that are good (Sansamp, EBS, Tech 21, Radial Bassbone, MXR, Eden WTDI, etc.). This is bound to help no matter what. Having some compression couldn't hurt either, but that only assumes someone knows how to set it up..otherwise it could kill the tone.

Another issue is the speaker and power amp situation at the church...Do they have speakers and enough power amp wattage that can move the bass? Do you only use your amp for live sound?

One of the things we do at Saddleback is to have a DI on stage along with an Ampeg Half-Stack. The bass player plugs direct into the DI which will send a separate signal to the board and a separate signal to the amp. You can tweak the amp to make it sound however you like to hear it sound to make you play well and then the board can mess with eq'ing your dry bass signal for the house speakers. Just tell the bass player to set everything on his bass as flat as possible and use the on stage amp to get his sound. Again, this is just another option that is out there..but in the end there are so many variables that it is hard to give a fix-all answer.

Personally, I use pedals (preamp/Eq, Compresser, etc) and dial my sound up at home and then just plug the XLR feed on stage into my own DI.

Originally Posted by invalidprotocol

My worship pastor has brought up a discussion regarding variances in bass EQ between the 3 bassists that rotate and their basses. In his words, one bass has lots of lows and little else, one is lost in the mix and another has tons of growl but would like to hear more lows. Mine is the latter.

The problem is that it isn't consistent. On good sound day when they EQ my jazz right my lows are just about perfect. At those times he will say that it is the ideal bass mix and should be the standard.

We have a lot of issues with what is an old sound system as well as rotating sound volunteers so I know it is a struggle. He has suggested the possibility of securing a house bass that we would all use and and wanted to know how I felt about it.

I shared the practical issues with the idea as well as personal ones that would probably be mutual among the bassists. I suggested an EQing night in which each bassist would come up with their basses and EQ to similar sound levels, then document the settings. Alternatively I proposed some form of preamp to doctor the sound and eliminate the dryness of the direct to board setup we have and would be particularly nice if it was programmable to remember settings.

I totally understand the issue and the problem that needs to be solved. I'd rather see it resolved in the sound booth but as of today that seems to be a problem with skillset, freaky equipment and sound setup.

Plans are to upgrade the sound system completely but that won't be an immediate fix either. If you have faced these issues before, what things did you try and what ideas worked or didn't work? I'd like to go back into additional discussions with more than my own thoughts or ideas. Thanks!

[Versatek6]

Tomorrow is our last coffeehouse of the year. We have been doing these on the last Friday of the month for almost two years, and it is a great ministry, and much fun! By the time December's last Friday shows up, though, everyone needs a break. Here is the set list:

1. Majestic (Brewster)
2. Blessed Be Your Name
3. Jesus, Friend of Sinners
4. 10,000 Reasons
5. Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone)
6. Our God (Tomlin)
7. When the Stars Burn Down
8. Everlasting God
9. Never Once
10. How Great is Our God
-
11. A New Hallelujah
12. Overcome
13. Give Me Jesus (trio)
14. Trading My Sorrows
15. Mary Mary
16. Voice of Truth
17. We Will Dance
18. Hope of the Nations
19. Gatlin Alleluia
20. You Are My King (Amazing Love)

After this, it's all-in for the Christmas programs!

[adambomb]

Ok....So......last night....When we were about to start the second song in the set my channel either on my side of things (odd because all the meters were saying there was input and output signal going for me) or from the house side was suddenly muted or a channel problem...... idk..... I could tell that when I bump my strings ......nothing.....so I was startled....then the drummer "click, click, click,....." on four i missed the intro of not playing my part for the big intro of "Indescribable" and it was noticeable because my slide down to low c on one triggers the guitarist to begin his part so nothing but rhythm, drums and keyboard .... I start playing in the hopes it resolves somehow with also trying to find out why, so I'm messing with my gear...no sound .... I finally came back on just as sudden as it went off then on and off again and when it did come back on..... to stay on ....the sound guy and myself had fiddled with the volume or something and it was super loud and distorted, which also made the whole atmosphere for the song ruined. Then the worship leader was acting oddly the rest of the song and didn't give the cue (hand gesture) that we were not going to the bridge or back to the 2nd verse again so when he went to the verse again the band went to to bridge he was playing rhythm so the music for the song was totally screwed..... It was terrible. During to run through it was perfect. We did not get one hand clap when the song was over. ( Crickets) The first and third and forth song went without a hitch. But it was a terrible and awkward 2nd song.........
Oh well..... It happens.
Practice tonight

[9mmMike]

Anyone using the OnSong Ap? Our primary worship leader has fully embraced this Ap. It is pretty cool if everyone has an iPad.

[JebDude]

Invalidprotocol - +1 on documenting soundboard settings. I have all gain and eq setups for all my active channels written down. Also, we have 3 junior high aged girls that rotate singing with the team. I have written the gain setting for each of them (they share a wireless mic) so that I can get that set close to correct each Sunday.

JB

[AaronWarren]

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

Anyone using the OnSong Ap? Our primary worship leader has fully embraced this Ap. It is pretty cool if everyone has an iPad.

Do not even get me started on this app!! I drive people nuts trying to get them to buy it, learn it and use it. Life for me has changed because of it. My Ipad goes to every gig with me and no matter what key they decide to change last minute, I am set! If you don't use this or know what it is...look it up. The app alone makes buying an Ipad or tablet worth it!!!

[9mmMike]

A while back, I built a P-bass and dedicated it for worship. It lives at the church and the team knows where the key is kept for the case. Not every player uses it but that was the best I could do.
For awhile I was adding to the problem by bringing a different bass each Sunday just depending on my mood. (Very selfish of me I think...i.e. "not about me"). It does help the sound-man to deal (or not deal) with changing tone from passive to active or rounds versus flats for instance.
These days I am pretty much the only bassist but I've no doubt that will change and hopefully the dedicated bass will be there if necessary.

[9mmMike]

Originally Posted by skamaniac

Do not even get me started on this app!! I drive people nuts trying to get them to buy it, learn it and use it. Life for me has changed because of it. My Ipad goes to every gig with me and no matter what key they decide to change last minute, I am set! If you don't use this or know what it is...look it up. The app alone makes buying an Ipad or tablet worth it!!!

Our biggest struggle has been converting everything into text so we can take full advantage of the Ap (like being able to change the keys on the fly).
We attended a seminar by the "inventor". Very nice guy who is very interested in the opinions/ideas from users and incorporating them into the next version(s).

[AaronWarren]

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

Our biggest struggle has been converting everything into text so we can take full advantage of the Ap (like being able to change the keys on the fly).
We attended a seminar by the "inventor". Very nice guy who is very interested in the opinions/ideas from users and incorporating them into the next version(s).

I highly recommend the Rockin' with the cross membership inside the app. I think it is like $3 or something, but it has 95% of the songs I ever need to play. For me, it is totally worth it. And I think you can share a single login with different Ipads, so you don't need different accounts. Not positive though...

I really wish it would convert .PDF's though...it would make life easier. I am so used to using it now, it doesn't bother me to type a song out.

[dDaddybass]

http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/selecting-dis.php
I used this when I choose my JDI. It may not be that easy for you. I know when I go in and set up, the sound guy always says, did you get something new? I've tried to explain the concept of the link I posted, but they don't seem interested. I recommend Radial, whatever route you choose to go (active or passive). I would bet your problems lay in the signal to the board. Output from different basses (active/passive) into the same DI can drive a sound guy crazy. I would suggest staying away from any box that has tone controls, unless all three of the bass players fully understand how the tone settings on their basses really work and how it effects the overall mix in the room.

[steve_rolfeca]

On the consistency question: I got a house bass for my church. It's a 5-string (Ibanez ATK305), which in many ways was a risky move, but I got it so cheap that it wasn't a major issue. Tone-wise, it's like a milder MM Stingray, which makes it fairly safe, and a pretty good fit for the music we do. No complaints from any regular or visiting bass players, which surprised me.

The trouble is, everyone sounds different on it. With D'Addario nickel rounds, I make it growl like crazy, yet another guy makes it sound a lot like a P with dead flats. This has been a useful training tool for the sound team.

The programmable Sansamp is another good idea, but in most churches, you'd probably still have problems with presets getting changed. Maybe have the WL look after it? Or keep it back at the sound desk?

I see a couple of issues with this drive for consistency:
- The bass doesn't function in isolation. Change the drummer, and you need to EQ the bass all over again. Bring in a second keyboard player, and away you go again....
- what about finding the right sound for the song?

To my way of thinking, training is the answer, at both ends of the snake.

Lessons for the bassists, suitably targeted for their skill levels, and periodic upgrade training for the sound people. I do a lot of sound guy training, and it always pays off better in the long run, than any amount of money spent on gear.