You what I love about all of you here? I can come with a serious 'aaaaaaaaarrrrrgggghh' feeling, vent, feel better for getting it off my chest, and then land up laughing at the great humour you guys display. I feel blessed.
M. <><
Nothing better than being able to laugh at your problems. Other than than taking a flamethrower to them. But it's not often that would be acceptable or appropriate.
Another solution is to unplug the sound desk and mix from another desk.... I have done that before LOL
It would be even funnier if you left the first board with power and mixed from another desk - and the first group did not notice! I've heard some sound guys that would be busy making "adjustments" and would claim credit for the improved sound if you did that to them.
Dan K.
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Music is the movement of sound to reach the soul for the education of its virtue. - Plato
We started using a Mackie DL1608 a few weeks ago (from an analog console) and so far the services have been a bit up and down so far. We finally managed to get most of the a/v "geek squad" in for practice last Thursday night and the result was a lot better sound yesterday morning.
Honestly though, the hardest part has been getting them to show up for training. Imo the sound crew is every bit as important as the musicians in achieving a good sound, and it's taken a while, but I think they're finally starting to get a hold on that. It doesn't matter how tight the band is if the sound guys botch it up the end result will be lacking. As musicians we're told by scripture to strive for excellence in our craft... the sound guys, lighting guys, video guys, and any others involved in the "production" aspects of a contemporary service should do so as well.
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My bowling ball is frozen in a footlocker in Chicago....
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Praise and Worship Club #960 / SPECTOR ® Club Member #261 / Tricked Out Squire Club #198
We started using a Mackie DL1608 a few weeks ago (from an analog console) and so far the services have been a bit up and down so far. We finally managed to get most of the a/v "geek squad" in for practice last Thursday night and the result was a lot better sound yesterday morning.
I haven't laid hands on the Mackie yet, but two out of the three of the churches I've had involvement with in regards to the Presonus boards, took the attitude that they wouldn't put the new gear into production until everyone was trained.
It meant a bit of frustration over the delay (one church went about 8 weeks before launch), but guess which churches sounded the best, and got the most congregational approval for their purchase?
IMO/IME, making the sound team wait increased their motivation to get trained, made for a smoother launch, and was therefore the better decision.
On the perceived (I've seen it with some, but not all, PA guys) divide between musicians and PA on the issue of training...
To get up on stage, whether at church on a Sunday or for a gig anywhere, a person can't just turn up and give it a go. There's time (months or years) of learning how to do it and this usually comes with an acknowledgement that there's still a lot to learn. There will usually be an audition as well before you're let loose in front of a real live audience/congregation.
To run PA in church, all it usually takes is a willingness to do it. Add in some on-the-job training from someone who probably learned the same way, and off you go. No audition, no checking aptitude for the job, no pre-qualification. Lack of ability is only usually shown in things going horribly wrong in a live setting.
A tough job, not helped by the recruitment and training process.
I say this as someone who appreciates the role of PA and has absolutely no desire to do it!
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My bowling ball is frozen in a footlocker in Chicago....
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Praise and Worship Club #960 / SPECTOR ® Club Member #261 / Tricked Out Squire Club #198
Our God
In Your Freedom
Open Heaven
Arms Open Wide
Then after the second service we're staying on for an extra rehearsal for the following Sunday's Christmas production. For the first time, I'm feeling very relaxed about Christmas, mainly because there are only four simple pieces for the band. The actors, dancers and singers have been hard at work for weeks - the band have had one meeting to talk the peices through and this Sunday will be the first time we've played them together.
To run PA in church, all it usually takes is a willingness to do it. Add in some on-the-job training from someone who probably learned the same way, and off you go. No audition, no checking aptitude for the job, no pre-qualification. Lack of ability is only usually shown in things going horribly wrong in a live setting.
I've been in that church and I've been that guy, but back in the day when things were very much simpler and perhaps it helped that I have a couple of degrees in electrical engineering. People always complained when I wasn't running sound which is odd because I could not tell you what I was doing that was any better than what the people who gave me my five minutes training were doing!
The director of tech ministries at my present church has a degree in audio/sound engineering and he actually was the person who designed the system the church uses. You don't get by him without considerable training! I, on the other hand, merely volunteered to play bass. I sat in on a couple months of rehearsals playing into headphones to get a feel for the process. Then one night I arrived at rehearsal and was told there was no bass player but me for Sunday. Surviving that rehearsal was my audition! Now I am sure the WL paid enough attention to my playing to convince himself that I could do the job, but not nearly as much as our tech director would do if I volunteered to help his team.
In the end though we really need to be soldiers in God's army and come together as a team. It's ok to let off a little steam here by ragging on the WL, the sound guy, the vocalists, the guitard, the drummer, the keyboard's left hand, and the little old lady in the congregation who complains about the bass playing. I suppose that in part that is why we are here. But soldiers should direct their real fire at the enemy and not consume themselves by killing each other with "friendly" fire. Getting along with the other units in God's army is not an option, it is a duty. I know that in some churches this is asking for the nearly impossible but our God can do the actually impossible. Be patient, try to find people in the church who can help you bridge the differences, and work/pray to be part of God's solution.
Besides, at my age that little old lady out in the congregation is likely to be my wife!
Ken - all good points, and I hope it didn't come across that I was having a dig at sound men. I've had my issues in the past but our current setup, team and culture is a joy to be part of (most of the time!).
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My bowling ball is frozen in a footlocker in Chicago....
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Praise and Worship Club #960 / SPECTOR ® Club Member #261 / Tricked Out Squire Club #198
But soldiers should direct their real fire at the enemy and not consume themselves by killing each other with "friendly" fire. Getting along with the other units in God's army is not an option, it is a duty. I know that in some churches this is asking for the nearly impossible but our God can do the actually impossible. Be patient, try to find people in the church who can help you bridge the differences, and work/pray to be part of God's solution.
Besides, at my age that little old lady out in the congregation is likely to be my wife!
Ken
Amen Ken. I love this, well said.
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My bowling ball is frozen in a footlocker in Chicago....
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Praise and Worship Club #960 / SPECTOR ® Club Member #261 / Tricked Out Squire Club #198
The PA desk is an instrument but it tends to attract technicians rather than musicians. The best mixers are the ones who, even if they don't play an instrument, have a deep love and understanding of music. Too often I've come across people who know what all the controls do but don't really know what should come out of the speakers. Like the one guy who said "I don't really hear the individual instruments, I can't tell the difference between them" - fortunately we managed to move him away from the desk.
If there isn't a person who exhibits both the logical, technical side and the creative, artisitic side, there's a good argument for well-balanced pairs or teams running PA.
SVT, I think your first statement here is so true. Most musicians really want to perform and don't see the sound board as an instrument and a performance in itself. That's why we wind up with so many tech geeks back there and not enough people with good ears.
Maybe the first thing that should be done before and team lets anyone loose on a sound board is A) give them a hearing test that involves listening to different music and asking them what instruments/hom many voices they can hear, B) a second hearing test asking them what's wrong with the mix on this recording. Maybe even just take them to an audiologist for a basic hearing test would be a good idea in some cases!
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P-bass Club member #377 - Traben Club #57 - Ampeg Club #575 - Fretless #728
Worship Bassist Club member #201 - Michigan Bassists #16 - 50+ Club #36 - Old Basstards #156
Is there anyone that knows of a metro Detroit area church that is in need of another bassist for their worship band?
I'm having a hard time finding a church to play at that is ok with me not becoming a member of their church. I already have a home church. I'm just looking fo more opportunities to play.
Is there anyone that knows of a metro Detroit area church that is in need of another bassist for their worship band?
I'm having a hard time finding a church to play at that is ok with me not becoming a member of their church. I already have a home church. I'm just looking fo more opportunities to play.
Sorry man, we're another of those churches that recruits internally. And maybe the distance is a bit of a barrier...
I have the Alan Parsons "Art and Science of Sound" series and I do my best to get the sound guys to watch the videos. The goal of the series is to teach someone how to listen more than anything else, but it also familiarizes the uninitiated with the use of effects, eq's, comps, etc. It's geared toward studio recording mostly, but many of the principles still apply in the live environment. The most shocking thing is how resistant some of the guys have been to learning new stuff.
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My bowling ball is frozen in a footlocker in Chicago....
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Praise and Worship Club #960 / SPECTOR ® Club Member #261 / Tricked Out Squire Club #198
It would be even funnier if you left the first board with power and mixed from another desk - and the first group did not notice! I've heard some sound guys that would be busy making "adjustments" and would claim credit for the improved sound if you did that to them.
Dan K.
something similar happened in a band i was once in.....
i had stepped away from the guitar (i was the rhythm player in this one) and i was constantly going to the board because the singer was saying how terrible his voice sounded in the mix and in the monitors. he was a constant downer of the "sound" i was going back and forth over and over ....... he would sing a bit and i would adjust and he was never happy.... then once he was saying how awful it was sounding. so i went to the board again and acted like i was adjusting but i never touched a knob. he then said it sounded perfect and that it sounded great and whatever i did really made a difference.
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The Official Fender Bassman Club #13 - The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club # 1103 - Official Virtual Ampeg Portaflex Club #1010101-01
....... he would sing a bit and i would adjust and he was never happy.... then once he was saying how awful it was sounding. so i went to the board again and acted like i was adjusting but i never touched a knob. he then said it sounded perfect and that it sounded great and whatever i did really made a difference. 
