The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 22

[5StringFool]

Psychoacoustics is a funny thing.

[steve_rolfeca]

I'm coming off a great weekend of music. Did a "Father's Heart" conference at a local church Friday night, Saturday afternoon and evening, and Sunday morning. Then took my friend Emmanuel (keys) to Agape, a little Sunday evening church service and community supper over at a nearby Mennonite church, only to find that the regular WL was off sick, and Emmanuel and I got to lead. Of course, I co-led in approved bass player form, from safely behind Emmanuel...

A partial setlist for my weekend:
10,000 REASONS by Jonas Myrin & Matt Redman in C
Arise, Shine by Kathryn Marquis in Bm
Be The Centre by Michael Frye in C
Better Is One Day by Matt Redman in C
Changing the Atmosphere by Steve Swanson in C
Dance by Suzy Wills-Yarei and Paulette Wooten in Dm
Dance With Me by Chris DuPre in Gm
Deep Cries Out by Christiann Koepke and William Matthews in C
Happy day by Tim Hughes, in F
Holy by Matt Gillman, in Dm
Holy And Anointed One by Vineyard in F
I Give You Glory by Andres Spyker in F
I Love Your Presence by Darren Clarke and Jessie Lane in Bb
In The Air Tonight by Phil Collins in Gm
I See The Lord by Mark McCoy & Andy Park in G
King of Glory (Your Face Outshines the Sun), by David Gate and Matt Redman, in Dm
My Redeemer Lives-Groove Version by Hillsong in A
Mystery by Kathryn Marquis in F
Open by Kathryn Marquis, in Dm
Purest Love by Bob Sprenger in Gm
Rain Down by Martin Smith and Stuart Garrard, in E
Round and Round by Steve Swanson, in Dm
Shekinah Glory by Cory Asbury in C
Supernatural by Kathryn Marquis in A
You Are Worthy Of My Praise by Hillsong in F
Your Kingdom Come by Kathryn Marquis in G

Plus numerous hymns, older praise choruses and Christmas carols at Agape.

I've heard people talking about worship as a draining experience, but I found that I only got more energized as the weekend went on.

My wife, on the other hand, was pretty much fried by the time I finally got home on Sunday evening. I'm fortunate to have such a supportive friend and partner in life.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

A partial setlist for my weekend:
10,000 REASONS by Jonas Myrin & Matt Redman in C
Arise, Shine by Kathryn Marquis in Bm
Be The Centre by Michael Frye in C
Better Is One Day by Matt Redman in C
Changing the Atmosphere by Steve Swanson in C
Dance by Suzy Wills-Yarei and Paulette Wooten in Dm
Dance With Me by Chris DuPre in Gm
Deep Cries Out by Christiann Koepke and William Matthews in C
Happy day by Tim Hughes, in F
Holy by Matt Gillman, in Dm
Holy And Anointed One by Vineyard in F
I Give You Glory by Andres Spyker in F
I Love Your Presence by Darren Clarke and Jessie Lane in Bb
In The Air Tonight by Phil Collins in Gm
I See The Lord by Mark McCoy & Andy Park in G
King of Glory (Your Face Outshines the Sun), by David Gate and Matt Redman, in Dm
My Redeemer Lives-Groove Version by Hillsong in A
Mystery by Kathryn Marquis in F
Open by Kathryn Marquis, in Dm
Purest Love by Bob Sprenger in Gm
Rain Down by Martin Smith and Stuart Garrard, in E
Round and Round by Steve Swanson, in Dm
Shekinah Glory by Cory Asbury in C
Supernatural by Kathryn Marquis in A
You Are Worthy Of My Praise by Hillsong in F
Your Kingdom Come by Kathryn Marquis in G

Plus numerous hymns, older praise choruses and Christmas carols at Agape.

I've heard people talking about worship as a draining experience, but I found that I only got more energized as the weekend went on.

I'm the same way ...... it drains most.....but I get strength and feel my most alive and at peace during and after. That's some set list btw

[SteveC]

I felt pretty drained after 4 sessions this weekend with 100+ high school kids. I don't know that it's a bad thing. It's tiring, even if it's in a good way.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by adambomb

That's some set list btw

Kathryn's original tunes are great, too. Best of all, she's an honest-to-goodness trained musician, who has a nice ear for chord substitutions, a well-developed sense of flow during worship, and really understands the role of electronic keyboards in a band setting.

It's really nice to work with someone of that caliber. Doesn't happen often in church circles around here, at least in the smaller congregations that I tend to work with.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by 5StringFool

Psychoacoustics is a funny thing.

Oh.... he was psycho alright

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

and really understands the role of electronic keyboards in a band setting.

If there was one aspect you would want to pass on to a relative newby, what would that be?

[5StringFool]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

If there was one aspect you would want to pass on to a relative newby, what would that be?

Make sure you duct tape the keyboardists left hand to his side.

[kbaxter26]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

If there was one aspect you would want to pass on to a relative newby, what would that be?

I would love to hear the answer to this one. I have been working hard on an old Squier Affinity Jazz I bought last winter. Playing it through a Fender Bassman 60. Finally got it close to the sound quality I am looking for. I sanded the neck down real good and got it very silky now. Finally got it set-up the way I like (tight action). Tonight I am going to play with pick-up heights. I do have a Squier PBass Special (P/J) with a killer neck on it, but I can not get the sound quality I want on it. Great to play though. God Bless ALL of you for being here for us wannabe's.

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by 5StringFool

Make sure you duct tape the keyboardists left hand to his side.

Nah, threaten to slap a pair of handcuffs on if their hands stray more than one octave apart.

[TodB]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

If there was one aspect you would want to pass on to a relative newby, what would that be?

The biggest thing in a band setting is to learn to share. When you are by yourself at home you pretty much play all the time, because if you aren't playing then there is no music happening. This is especially true for keys and guitar players. In a band setting, not every song needs a keys line on every verse, and you don't need a synth solo every time there is no singing. For that matter, there are songs that don't need drums and even (horrors) songs that don't need bass.

My biggest peeve with church music is that so much of the time it is "everybody in the pool" on every verse of every song. It's hard to communicate the idea that "you shouldn't play right now" in a way that doesn't come out sounding like "because you're not talented" or "because you're not important" but instead is only because that's what the song needs.

The other thing is that if you are going to make mistakes then go ahead and make them loud. New players are sometimes so worried about making a mistake that they end up just quietly noodling in the background in a way that doesn't really contribute to the feel of a song. You are there because you are supposed to add something. Not all the time on every verse (see rule 1), but you are supposed to add something sometime. Nothing wrong with getting comfortable first, but then there is a time to pick your spots and make people glad you are there.

[MissingHighs]

Maybe I need to rephrase my question: Steve commented how Kathryn was a pleasure to play with. Would he care to pass on one thing he found the most helpful such that we (as bassists) might be able to pass on to relative newby keys players so as to make our lives a little more enjoyable.

I know we all have ideas, but (let's be fair) we do have a seasoned (35 years?) bassist who found playing with a talented musician a joy. I think we could all learn from him.

M. <><

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

Steve commented how Kathryn was a pleasure to play with. Would he care to pass on one thing he found the most helpful such that we (as bassists) might be able to pass on to relative newby keys players so as to make our lives a little more enjoyable.

The concept of space.

As others have said, pianists used to leading in church tend to have difficulty learning how to become a small part of something larger. On top of that, most synth voices are much thicker and wider than an acoustic piano. Even Keith Emerson, playing in the most over-the-top power trio of the '70s (ELP), spent a lot of time playing one-handed.

It's not just about laying off the bottom octave- it's about learning to play closely-voiced triads and tight little fills, instead of hogging the whole spectrum, both rhythmically AND harmonically. Symphony musicians totally get this. Ever see a cello player trying to double the second violin part, or the guy on the triangle stepping all over the tympani?

Paul Baloche touches on this in his videos, but I would rather have our hypothetical keyboard player take the master class, by watching the segment on "Home At Last", from the the Steely Dan "Making Of" DVD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfdxlsc9hA

In the opening moments, there's a stark contrast between the busy, percolating groove of that tune, and Fagen's "lazy hands", playing those tight, minimalist accents. I'd remind our keyboard newb that Fagen wrote that tune, and yet he isn't hogging the show.

Then, I'd have your whole band watch the rest of the segment, seeing how every player from the drummer to the multiple guitarist(s) contributes, building the rhythm up from small, concise, tightly layered parts.

The biggest problem in church, isn't in the soundbooth, or over at the keyboard station. It's the combination of just about everyone in the band (quite often including the bass player), not knowing how or when to shut up. 'Nuff said.

[english4bw]

Originally Posted by 5StringFool

Make sure you duct tape the keyboardists left hand to his side.

I usually ASK nicely for whomever is playing keys to avoid playing any bass clef stuff, or if they do, to keep it to single root notes/no chords. A lot of classically trained piano/key players are stuck in that full-play/dual clef mode, so it takes a little friendly coaxing and patience to get them to forget about their left-hand/bass clef parts.

The other method is to get the soundperson on board. Most sound engineers HATE when keyboardists wash the bass spectrum with notes on their left hand (especially with respect to subs). So getting the sound guy to agree with you on telling the keys to take it easy with the left hand has been helpful for me in some cases.

[HereIGoAgain]

Originally Posted by english4bw

I usually ASK nicely for whomever is playing keys to avoid playing any bass clef stuff, or if they do, to keep it to single root notes/no chords. A lot of classically trained piano/key players are stuck in that full-play/dual clef mode, so it takes a little friendly coaxing and patience to get them to forget about their left-hand/bass clef parts.

The other method is to get the soundperson on board. Most sound engineers HATE when keyboardists wash the bass spectrum with notes on their left hand (especially with respect to subs). So getting the sound guy to agree with you on telling the keys to take it easy with the left hand has been helpful for me in some cases.

No, you've got it all wrong. When the keyboard player does heavy bass clef stuff including thick chords and walks, simply slide up beyond the 12th fret and start playing melody lines.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

The concept of space.
Symphony musicians totally get this. Ever see a cello player trying to double the second violin part, or the guy on the triangle stepping all over the tympani?

Paul Baloche touches on this in his videos, but I would rather have our hypothetical keyboard player take the master class, by watching the segment on "Home At Last", from the the Steely Dan "Making Of" DVD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfdxlsc9hA
.

Before I picked up a guitar at all or joined my first rock band I was in marching and concert and jazz bands from the 7th to 12 grade...... it is all about space and having your own part.
And measures and measures of counting rests. Before you play again.
And your own part even in the same section not just brass or woodwind but also 1st 2nd and 3rd chair parts of your own instrument section.
Steely Dan, great writers.... my sister-in-law was named after the AJA album. My wife's name is Layla...... I know that's not steely Dan but you get the idea about my in-laws.

The Purdie shuffle .....excellent

[mccartneyman]

Originally Posted by adambomb

something similar happened in a band i was once in.....

i had stepped away from the guitar (i was the rhythm player in this one) and i was constantly going to the board because the singer was saying how terrible his voice sounded in the mix and in the monitors. he was a constant downer of the "sound" i was going back and forth over and over ....... he would sing a bit and i would adjust and he was never happy.... then once he was saying how awful it was sounding. so i went to the board again and acted like i was adjusting but i never touched a knob. he then said it sounded perfect and that it sounded great and whatever i did really made a difference.

This works in a symphony orchestra too. Conductor says trombones are too loud. They play softer. Still too loud. At dress rehearsal, trombones put horns to face and pretend to play but don't. Conductor says, "Perfect." I was in the section.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by english4bw

...A lot of classically trained piano/key players are stuck in that full-play/dual clef mode, so it takes a little friendly coaxing and patience to get them to forget about their left-hand/bass clef parts.

The other method is to get the soundperson on board. Most sound engineers HATE when keyboardists wash the bass spectrum with notes on their left hand (especially with respect to subs).

Getting the sound guy to apply gentle subtractive EQ helps, too. Especially on digital boards where every EQ band is parametric, you can make a little pocket in the low end of the keys, so the bass has a hole to shine through. It's the same as cutting slots to in two competing BGV's, to get them to sit together better in the mix.

If you overdo it, you'll make the solo sound of the keys too thin on intros, but 3dB here and there can make a surprising difference.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by adambomb

Before I picked up a guitar at all or joined my first rock band I was in marching and concert and jazz bands from the 7th to 12 grade...... it is all about space and having your own part.
And measures and measures of counting rests. Before you play again. And your own part even in the same section not just brass or woodwind but also 1st 2nd and 3rd chair parts of your own instrument section.

This applies to virtually every style of music. Note counts and complexity are much higher in most styles of jazz, but if you don't know how to sit back and be supportive during someone else's solo, you won't get many return calls. Ditto for the blues, and if you can't tell when to let 'er rip in a rock band, and when to stick to unison riffing? Game over...

[kbaxter26]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

Maybe I need to rephrase my question: Steve commented how Kathryn was a pleasure to play with. Would he care to pass on one thing he found the most helpful such that we (as bassists) might be able to pass on to relative newby keys players so as to make our lives a little more enjoyable.

I know we all have ideas, but (let's be fair) we do have a seasoned (35 years?) bassist who found playing with a talented musician a joy. I think we could all learn from him.

M. <><

sorry