The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 22

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by kbaxter26

sorry

If anyone needs to apologise, it's me. If I came across slightly harshly then please forgive. I'm suffering acute bronchitis and TB is keeping from going insane with all the coughing.

Marc. <><

[jmclearnon]

You know why 3db makes a large difference... because its doubling the signal level...

Since yesterday morning there has been a lot of really good posts. I would totally agree with the keyboards generally playing too much, actually when i think about it the rest of the worship teams are generally fine on that respect but the keyboard...

It's the loudest instrument by far on stage, i'm probably going to suggest IEM's, its mostly because of low PCM synths and they really mess up the bass spectrum. I have been told to turn down as i am "too loud" and i ave actually turned my amp/monitors off completely (luckily i know my instrument well enough), people still say the bass is too loud... It's not coming from me lol

Also its un-mixable when doing sound, if you cut the bass (only thing you can really do) you mess up the entire EQ and it becomes a tin-sounding mess.
I have asked them nicely to turn down /change their playing style or even just play up 2 octaves but they don't listen

IEM sounds the way to go for the onstage noise IMO

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

The concept of space.

<--snip-->

Thank you Steve for sharing this. This level of answer was not expected, and the additional comments that followed, but greatly appreciated.

The problem with the culture I find myself in is unless you have a degree in music you have no chance of bringing across the rudiments to sounding good. Being able to point to, refer, or quote other material is a huge help.

Yet, there is the nasty human issue of "if I play less I'm giving up control". No, not so, if you play less you actually gain control.

Marc. <><

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

Thank you Steve for sharing this. This level of answer was not expected, and the additional comments that followed, but greatly appreciated.

The problem with the culture I find myself in is unless you have a degree in music you have no chance of bringing across the rudiments to sounding good. Being able to point to, refer, or quote other material is a huge help.

Yet, there is the nasty human issue of "if I play less I'm giving up control". No, not so, if you play less you actually gain control.

Marc. <><

Playing less can be a big challenge for some people. There's the thought that if I'm on stage with an instrument in my hands, I better do something with it. I find the less experienced the player is, the more they need help in this area. When I'm MDing on stage, and in the directions I e-mail out at the start of the week, I tend to be pretty clear about who isn't playing for certain sections of songs. Quite often it means a verse and chorus of no activity or, as I prefer to think of it, time to worship with no distractions. There are a couple of songs this week where I'm not playing for the first couple of minutes and I embrace that - I know that when I do come in, I have a lot more impact than if I'd been playing from the start.

Keys struggle most with this, followed by acoustic guitar, because they're the most self-sufficient instruments. They often need help in understanding that in a band of four people, they only need to play 1/4 of what they could play.

[jmclearnon]

Yeah i would agree guitar generally just plays full pelt as soon as possible for as long as possible.

...You could experiment by giving everyone violins/flutes and give them written music to follow with lots of gaps

[MissingHighs]

I had a truly rewarding experience this weekend about playing less and the impact it can have; we have a truly gifted and talented young saxophonist. During warm up he showed he's developing the ability to what I call "echo playing" (during say a bar of no singing, often at the end of a 'line') to 'echo' the notes of the previous bar, but play very little else. Sounded stunning. I urged him to do that during the 'live' singing and reminded him of this just short of the song. He did and it was just amazing. Oh, the reward, someone coming up to him afterwards to compliment him on his playing. It's all the reward I desire, that someone else gets the recognition.

M. <><

[jmclearnon]

Yeah thats a really good thing to learn to do especially in sax, quite a lot of sax players in the jazz world do that a lot its great

The brass in our church are not good enough for that, but we have gradually written brass parts out for some songs and they are class

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by jmclearnon

Yeah i would agree guitar generally just plays full pelt as soon as possible for as long as possible.

Here's a thought: we need to teach young guitarists to play like they are tidying their bedrooms; to do as little as is needed to get away with making it look good. This as opposed to playing as if they are throwing a wild party which lands up trashing the place.

You know, just realised how much easier it would be to learn to read music if the notes to be played were separated by 'rests' giving one time to 'decode' what the next note should be played - and would emphasise it's perfectly normal to shut up and give 'space'.

M. <><

[jmclearnon]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

This as opposed to playing as if they are throwing a wild party which lands up trashing the place.

M. <><

Lol this is what happens most of the time lol Made me laugh.

TBH i think guitarists actually learning how to play the chords properly would be a good start... i find they just play the standard chord which is great if the bassist is playing parts of the actual written chord ....

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by jmclearnon

i find they just play the standard chord which is great if the bassist is playing parts of the actual written chord ....

What I find is if they played just the top three strings and left any bass part, including the bit they call 'slash', to the bassist, then both are happy!

M. <><

p.s. 24 hours on killer levels of antibiotics and I'm feeling loads better - maybe it'll soon be time to get back to work!

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

..The problem with the culture I find myself in is unless you have a degree in music you have no chance of bringing across the rudiments to sounding good. Being able to point to, refer, or quote other material is a huge help.

Don't feel bad, you're in good company: Mark Chapter 6, vv 4-6...

I attend a music camp every year with people who range from choir directors with advanced degrees in music, to soccer moms who just love to sing. For years, I've been teaching these concepts of space and simplicity in my band seminars.

Even though I barely have the right to untie the sandals of some of these people, I've never had a problem getting the respect and attention of the pros- they are secure in the knowledge of their own skills and my lack, yet they recognize that I bring something different to the table because of my schooling in jazz, and experience with secular pop music.

But I never got very far with the enthusiastic amateurs, until I brought a laptop, and played short video segments during the week. We live in a society where TV is the ultimate authority on everything; even ardent Christians aren't immune to its influence.

So, why not bring videos to your discussions with the rest of the team?

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

What I find is if they played just the top three strings and left any bass part, including the bit they call 'slash', to the bassist, then both are happy!

Speaking of "happy guitarists", here's a video I recently added to my arsenal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNPWVi0sHac

One of the problems with celebrity videos, is that you'll often see big names doing it all wrong. Elvis syndrome is still huge in pop music- dumb jerk fronting the band, strumming away like a banshee on a (totally muted) acoustic guitar, while the rest of the band play with grace and elegance.

However, this one is at least as good as the Steely Dan stuff, just in a different way. There's a whole college course in the intro and first verse, from the extremely sparse playing of the (obviously gifted) drummer, to the way they let Joe Walsh's guitar intro hang out there, to those tight little chord stabs from the keys, to the fact that Daryl Hall never wastes a pick stroke on an unecessary accent...

Perhaps the best part is around the 5 minute mark, where the track is getting REALLY big and dense, yet you can still hear spaces between organ phrases, and the guitarists are still leaving some holes...

[steve_rolfeca]

It occurred to me during a conversation on Facebook the other day, that part of the problem with a lot of church guitarists, especially WL's who lead on acoustic, is trust issues.

Any of the guys in that Daryl's House segment could step into a typical no-name band, and completely take over. But in the context of those sessions, there's a level of experience, respect and trust that makes an easy, relaxed approach possible.

A typical WL doesn't have that luxury. They're often only on part-time wages, yet they're expected to sing lead, train and conduct the band, and play an important instrumental part. Half the band blows off practice at least once or twice a month because of other commitments. The drummer is still learning their instrument. The pastor didn't cough up the sermon notes until a couple of days before the service, if at all, the sound guys don't know how to do simple gain staging, etc., etc., etc...

So what happens? The WL tries to drive the bus from his guitar, "suggesting" the rhythm he wants from the drummer by banging it out hard enough to break a string, playing my straight 8ths part on the chorus, etc.

Even after 16 years in churches, the former pro in me still gets angry sometimes, and I'm tempted to tell the offending guitar player something like "if you like the bleeping drums so much, why don't you take over his seat!!!"

Thankfully, the thought has never reached my lips, because we all need the same thing. Not just the worship leader and the rest of the novices in the band, but me too, as the sole senior citizen in the room- that thing is the kind of thoughtful encouragement and extravagant grace, that will keep us all listening and learning together.

[5StringFool]

The "half the band blows off practice" thing along with showing up late for the Sunday morning run through are my pet peeves. Even on my weeks off rotation I go in on practice nights and play bass for the band because the other bass players never show up on Thursday nights and the band says it so much easier to practice when they have a bass in the mix. I understand not being able to make it every now and then, but when it's a regular happening... :/

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

... part of the problem ..., especially WL's who lead [on acoustic], is trust issues.

I wonder if this is not the underlying issue throughout. Trust your fellow musician to deliver, and even if they don't you still give them the responsibility to deliver (if they can't, then they realize quicker where to concentrate in practise sessions).

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

... we all need the same thing. Not just the worship leader and the rest of the novices in the band, but me too, as the sole senior citizen in the room- that thing is the kind of thoughtful encouragement and extravagant grace, that will keep us all listening and learning together.

+1

[jmclearnon]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

It occurred to me during a conversation on Facebook the other day, that part of the problem with a lot of church guitarists, especially WL's who lead on acoustic, is trust issues.

Any of the guys in that Daryl's House segment could step into a typical no-name band, and completely take over. But in the context of those sessions, there's a level of experience, respect and trust that makes an easy, relaxed approach possible.

A typical WL doesn't have that luxury. They're often only on part-time wages, yet they're expected to sing lead, train and conduct the band, and play an important instrumental part. Half the band blows off practice at least once or twice a month because of other commitments. The drummer is still learning their instrument. The pastor didn't cough up the sermon notes until a couple of days before the service, if at all, the sound guys don't know how to do simple gain staging, etc., etc., etc...

So what happens? The WL tries to drive the bus from his guitar, "suggesting" the rhythm he wants from the drummer by banging it out hard enough to break a string, playing my straight 8ths part on the chorus, etc.

Even after 16 years in churches, the former pro in me still gets angry sometimes, and I'm tempted to tell the offending guitar player something like "if you like the bleeping drums so much, why don't you take over his seat!!!"

Thankfully, the thought has never reached my lips, because we all need the same thing. Not just the worship leader and the rest of the novices in the band, but me too, as the sole senior citizen in the room- that thing is the kind of thoughtful encouragement and extravagant grace, that will keep us all listening and learning together.

I would totally agree with this, luckily our main worship leader (the guy i play for most of the time) sings and plays assorted percussion and is very good at leaving space and leading

[dDaddybass]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

If anyone needs to apologise, it's me. If I came across slightly harshly then please forgive. I'm suffering acute bronchitis and TB is keeping from going insane with all the coughing.

Marc. <><

Prayers going up for you.

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by dDaddybass

Prayers going up for you.

Thanks bro.

[jmclearnon]

Same!! Is that a lightwave bass? I was going to see if i could find one to see what they were like?

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

I wonder if this is not the underlying issue throughout. Trust your fellow musician to deliver, and even if they don't you still give them the responsibility to deliver (if they can't, then they realize quicker where to concentrate in practise sessions).

Yes. When we rehearse, everyone knows what they should be playing. I'm not going to play the lead guitarist's part on bass and wouldn't expect the keyboard player to take my bass line. We all know what we should be playing and no-one else is going to do it. If you haven't practiced your part, it will be noticed.