The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 22

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

If formal training holds musicians back, how do you explain "over educated" pioneers like Dave Brubeck, Keith Emerson, Bill Evans, Jan Hammer, and Rick Wakeman?

encore... encore... encore (more please, lots more)

Steve, I'm dreadfully disappointed in you. You mean you've grown up!? I thought us guys *never* grew up, just the price of our toys reflect our physical age

On a slightly more serious note: I think we're totally on the same hymnsheet. Do I think our keys players stink? Well, actually I'm kinda jealous they can read music at lightning speed and put down a more-than-reasonable rendition.

What I can't get my head around is they appear to indicate that just because they can hold their own, and I play half by ear and half by the letters above the treble clef, that through this I am to give them all the sonic space their music demands of them.

I had the pleasure not too long back of playing alongside a friend who just so happens to lecture in music at a prestigious London music college. His grace and elegance on the ivories is simply heavenly. Yet, as soon as the bass comes in, he doesn't continue down the bottom end or even throw his left hand away, but moves it up to somewhere near the centre of the keyboard.

In church, however, I feel pushed into the background and viewed as not contributing and, therefore, not required. Their refusal to let go of the left hand, or even just simply move it up one octave, and give me a little space... what actually stinks is not their playing, but their attitude.

Sorry, it appears what you wrote triggered something in me (thanks for letting me rant), but it also re-triggers the quest and desire in me to continue to practise and bring of my best, for Him, of course.

(Chad, hope you don't mind, borrowed your idea) See the link in my signature.

Marc.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by rotis

We don't allow tambourines or shofars for that matter. If you want to play an instrument, try out for the worship team. We allow flags, but you have to use them in the back and for some folks only feel called to do that in the front.

Now that's funny! I've noticed how common it is for people with flags to want to be at the front. Like the guy who had a very earnest debate with one of our pastors about why we should have a 'flag ministry' and the biblical significance of all his different coloured flags.

[5StringFool]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

I had the pleasure not too long back of playing alongside a friend who just so happens to lecture in music at a prestigious London music college. His grace and elegance on the ivories is simply heavenly. Yet, as soon as the bass comes in, he doesn't continue down the bottom end or even throw his left hand away, but moves it up to somewhere near the centre of the keyboard.

In church, however, I feel pushed into the background and viewed as not contributing and, therefore, not required. Their refusal to let go of the left hand, or even just simply move it up one octave, and give me a little space... what actually stinks is not their playing, but their attitude.

The difference, ime, is that your friend understands playing in an ensemble. Most of the pianists I've played with simply don't have experience doing this and approach playing in the same manner as being a soloist. In my own limited formal training, which consists of a few years of piano lessons, I never played anything but solo pieces at recitals, and it's the same for everyone else I know. You're never taught how to be part of a group.

The typical church pianist in my area is the sole accompanist to the congregation when singing as well, so they are the melody, harmony, and rhythm section. So when they come into a con temporary setting many of them just have a hard time adjusting to a different approach to playing their instrument.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by 5StringFool

The difference, ime, is that your friend understands playing in an ensemble. Most of the pianists I've played with simply don't have experience doing this and approach playing in the same manner as being a soloist. In my own limited formal training, which consists of a few years of piano lessons, I never played anything but solo pieces at recitals, and it's the same for everyone else I know. You're never taught how to be part of a group.

The typical church pianist in my area is the sole accompanist to the congregation when singing as well, so they are the melody, harmony, and rhythm section. So when they come into a con temporary setting many of them just have a hard time adjusting to a different approach to playing their instrument.

That's a fair summary. We're blessed in that two of our keys players are both classically trained and well-experienced at playing in bands. They've maybe had time adapt to being less 'busy' with their right hand but no bass encroachment issues.

With the new keys player coming in, I was able to lay down some guidelines about how to play in a band and what her role was. Same with other instruments as well. But we needed a settled band of people setting a good precedent first.

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by 5StringFool

The typical church pianist in my area is the sole accompanist to the congregation when singing as well, so they are the melody, harmony, and rhythm section. So when they come into a con temporary setting many of them just have a hard time adjusting to a different approach to playing their instrument.

And the brotherly side of me earnestly gives latitude for this, without issue. But each (keys player) has been playing in our band environment for countless years now. What's that odd expression? Something akin to "I'd give my eye teeth" to find a way to lovingly entice them into a journey of freedom on the keys.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

And the brotherly side of me earnestly gives latitude for this, without issue. But each (keys player) has been playing in our band environment for countless years now. What's that odd expression? Something akin to "I'd give my eye teeth" to find a way to lovingly entice them into a journey of freedom on the keys.

Try and get your band along to a Musicademy worship training day. They do a good practical demonstration of what happens when everyone plays everything they can, then explain how to be aware of what others are playing.

[MissingHighs]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Try and get your band along to a Musicademy worship training day. They do a good practical demonstration of what happens when everyone plays everything they can, then explain how to be aware of what others are playing.

I tried! OK, not quite the one you mentioned, but one run by EMU. They did, however, go to one where my friend ran the keys workshop (and, to add insult to injury, this is not the first time; they've been to at least four in the last 2 years).

But, when they play, there's a massive hole twixt left and right hands. I see this as "playground" and find myself doing harmonic bits up the neck! They're unwittingly teaching me how to bass solo

[rotis]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

Now that's funny! I've noticed how common it is for people with flags to want to be at the front. Like the guy who had a very earnest debate with one of our pastors about why we should have a 'flag ministry' and the biblical significance of all his different coloured flags.

We look at it like the worship team is ministering to the people by leaving them in worship. Everyone else is ministering to God and you can do that in the back of the room. When your ministry to God gets in the way of other people's ability to be led by the worship team we have problems. That's the same reason we don't let shofars in the service. You can't just show up with your own instrument and play it randomly. The people on stage are the ones who practiced their instruments so the whole congregation could be blessed. If you want to try out for the worship team will let you know when we have a song that needs a shofar.

[oldcatfish]

I've had good luck with a lot of keyboard players by approaching them this way. At rehearsal play through the song once. Then, mention loudly that the bass and keyboards sound very muddy together. Look at the keyboard player and say, "well, I really don't have anyway to change what I'm playing without totally changing the feel of the song, so could you either only play root notes on the one beat with your left hand, or move your left hand up an octave so that we won't be in the same sonic space."

It usually works, and most of them will choose option two. After a few times of doing that, you won't even need to ask anymore. Of course, there are always those keyboard players that are oblivious and won't change a thing.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by 5StringFool

The difference, ime, is that your friend understands playing in an ensemble.

...In my own limited formal training, which consists of a few years of piano lessons, I never played anything but solo pieces at recitals, and it's the same for everyone else I know. You're never taught how to be part of a group.

...So when they come into a con temporary setting many of them just have a hard time adjusting to a different approach to playing their instrument.

IMO, there is fault amongst both the teaching community, and in churches.

On the one hand, far too many "piano teachers" got the job by finishing their ARCT through private lessons, and hanging up their shingle as a teacher. Far too many have little or no actual experience outside of playing for exams, and maybe an annual recital. Try getting out of a program like Juilliard, without getting extensive ensemble experience!

On the other hand, churches generally don't take their players (all of them, not just pianists) to task on this issue.

The secular music business sorts out over-eager players pretty quickly. A musician may not know when to shut up, but even if there are pride and attitude problems involved, they quickly learn how to fit in. It's that, or look for other work.

Unfortunately, in an volunteer-heavy, under-resourced, loyalty-based environment like most churches, there's little incentive to change. Plus, many churches have a top-down leadership culture. This can bleed into all the ministries, including music.

[klokker]

In my praise band, the keyboard player had this everlasting warm-pad that was always on. After a while it became a metaphor for hell.......this gooey, boomy mud that entraps you forever, like a perpetual quick-sand, a slow eternal death.

Finally, this person moved away. We miss keyboards once in a while, but our load is easier and our burden is lighter.

[khutch]

Originally Posted by great bleudini

When I started on the team rehearsal at 6:30 meant everybody was present, tuned, and ready to play at 6:30.

That is how it is at our church and it is that way because the WL enforces it. I am sure it is not a happy task to play the heavy but it tends to be a self-limiting unhappiness because the more you enforce it, the less you need to enforce it. People quickly learn that if you don't practice you don't play, if you aren't on time you don't play, ....

Modern family schedules are quite brutal with all the after school activities that parents have to cover somehow. So our WL does make exceptions in exceptional cases. Just don't make a habit of it!

Ken

[MissingHighs]

Steve, you have, once again, spoken like a wise man! What you say is true. I'm going to try something and see if it works. I'm going to pay serious attention to the keys left hand. When they move down (or leave a 'hole') then I'm moving up... and vice versa. If they say "we can't hear the bass" I'll quietly comment "that's odd, you're playing it". In the meantime, I'm going to continue learning the upper frets of the bass; about time I did (3 years on!).

[khutch]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

On a slightly more serious note: I think we're totally on the same hymnsheet. Do I think our keys players stink? Well, actually I'm kinda jealous they can read music at lightning speed and put down a more-than-reasonable rendition.

What I can't get my head around is they appear to indicate that just because they can hold their own, and I play half by ear and half by the letters above the treble clef, that through this I am to give them all the sonic space their music demands of them.

...

In church, however, I feel pushed into the background and viewed as not contributing and, therefore, not required. Their refusal to let go of the left hand, or even just simply move it up one octave, and give me a little space... what actually stinks is not their playing, but their attitude.

I just lock onto the drummer and play like a bull in a china shop! Other people may be playing in my space but they are not playing what I am playing so I don't really worry about them. The sound team seems to really like bass guitar so they will work their little tricks on the mix to bring it out, if needed. And some of our keys players are as easy to riff off of as the drummers are because they really like having a bass guitar in the ensemble to work with.

I can read music as well as any of them even if I cannot sight read music all that well on bass guitar. If you gave me written out parts to play I would have them well practiced by Sunday, you can count on that. The next time someone gives me a written out part of more than 3 or 4 measures to play will be the first time however. Most written bass parts I see are less than a measure long and they often only indicate the rhythm. So don't let that make you feel like you can't hold your own. Bass guitar players are pretty much all expected to copy their parts by ear and/or compose their own off the chords and the rest of the band's energy. A lot of the band plays their parts, we are jamming off them. I often change what I have practiced against the rehearsal mp3s after hearing how the rest of the band plays at our Thursday rehearsal. In fact I record the rehearsals and practice against those recordings on Friday and Saturday. Personally I'd rather have a written out part since I can play a written part better than I can improvise but if you are good at the latter you are right where you need to be and don't let anyone try to tell you any different.

Ken

[MissingHighs]

Thank so much for the encouragement Ken. I, too, lock in with my foundational partner, and (oddly) also play "like a (dancing) bull in a china shop". Our sound team despise bass, so it's never in the mix. I had to take my amp home, and work through a puny little monitor not desgned for bass (that's ok, if I pop the cone with a low B, well, the sound guys made this choice) and I've also been banned from anything sound, including touching the controls on the new amp (replaced one 'evil' for another some time later! that's the logic that prevails). However, I will confess to playing a low-down dirty trick here. The guy ahead of me (I only ever play 2nd morning service and/or evening) has a passive bass, and he only tickles his strings. Mine's active and I make my strings work for a living. He sets the volume for his bass, and I simply plug in, and, as commanded, touch nothing! I am back to having all the volume I want! If it didn't clash with the keys, man, I'd be happy. But, it's does, so, it's plan B

[MissingHighs]

25 posts to a new thread!

[SoCalBassman]

Man this thread moves fast.

[caeman]

We are a talkative lot.

[SoVeryTired]

An odd experience tomorrow - I'm not playing and my wife isn't greeting or doing refreshments for the team (she's on the after-service prayer team instead). This means we'll travel to and from the service in a single car as a family - and just for one service! It's a novel idea...

[Mr L]

Someone must dust the soundboard with a broom cause every week the volume for everything is super wacky. Also we can never get the bass right, either its too loud (nocomplaints) or too quiet to the point i cant hear myself at all.

If youve ever played all day by hillsong (very fun upbeat bass tune) its mainly bass. Afterwards i asked people how they liked the new song and they responded with "good ,but why was it only drums for most of it?" Couldnt even hear me! Oh well, next time