The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 23

[theLimeyBrit]

Nope. I'm guessing it's posted in a forum that only supporting members have access to?

[Sethbass]

Originally Posted by TodB

There comes a time where you have to decide if you want to be in a church or a museum. If you want to do things just the way they did them in 1977, or 1877, then you want to be in a museum.

On the other hand, if you want to be in a church, that's all about passing the torch on to the next generation. That means letting the next generation step up even if you could do it better, or at least you could do it in the way that you like better. 15 years ago I was leading and playing every week. Now I'm playing bass behind leaders young enough to be my kids, and not playing every week so there's room for younger players, even though I like to play and think I play better than they do. Transitions are the way it's supposed to work.

The other night he broke out his accoustic guitar and sang " gimme that old time religion" and again as I said in earlier posts his theme for the year us moving forward to the basics.. Which yes is not at all a bad thing but when couled with old time religion that to me spells mediocrity.. Plus i traded religion for relationship! Otherwise I did sit with him last night and it was concluded that I am not the bass player this church is needing and resigned. And again there are other issues at play here buy as I have explaines this is a bass forum so i stuck with that. The attendance has fallen off about 50%,there are people saying that they are not getting deep relevant word! And that is true, for me as well. Thank you my fellow worshipers and bassists for your prayers and thoughtful words of assistance.. I have played for 20 years and this is a pretty big deal for me... And the page has turned!

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by Sethbass

The other night he broke out his accoustic guitar and sang " gimme that old time religion" and again as I said in earlier posts his theme for the year us moving forward to the basics.. Which yes is not at all a bad thing but when couled with old time religion that to me spells mediocrity.. Plus i traded religion for relationship! Otherwise I did sit with him last night and it was concluded that I am not the bass player this church is needing and resigned. And again there are other issues at play here buy as I have explaines this is a bass forum so i stuck with that. The attendance has fallen off about 50%,there are people saying that they are not getting deep relevant word! And that is true, for me as well. Thank you my fellow worshipers and bassists for your prayers and thoughtful words of assistance.. I have played for 20 years and this is a pretty big deal for me... And the page has turned!

Sounds like the right decision. I'd be struggling with old time religion too. Here's praying you find the right home soon.

And as a sidenote: the way it used to be done is not necessarily any closer to 'the basics' as it is today. The basics are quite simple and don't usually look a whole lot like what we turn them into.

[Dave the Bass]

Originally Posted by TodB

There comes a time where you have to decide if you want to be in a church or a museum. If you want to do things just the way they did them in 1977, or 1877, then you want to be in a museum.

On the other hand, if you want to be in a church, that's all about passing the torch on to the next generation. That means letting the next generation step up even if you could do it better, or at least you could do it in the way that you like better. 15 years ago I was leading and playing every week. Now I'm playing bass behind leaders young enough to be my kids, and not playing every week so there's room for younger players, even though I like to play and think I play better than they do. Transitions are the way it's supposed to work.

Footnote: There are people who still connect with traditional liturgy and right on to the churches who meet that need even though most of them don't have bass players hanging out here. We're all called to feed the world and the guys serving burgers shouldn't complain that the guys serving tacos are doing it wrong. You should just understand what kind of church you want to be a part of, and if the leadership is serving tacos but you connect with burgers then you need to find a place that does burgers.

I'm approaching that transition point.....I'm 41, my WL just turned 30, everyone else on the team is younger than that, my backup bassist is 16.....so I guess I'm one of the "old fogeys". I still fit in pretty well with the younger crowd, probably because I share a love for metal with the younger guys.

[SoVeryTired]

I don't like to think of church, or life in general, like a relay race. It's more of a mass-participaion ultramarathon! I'm all for bringing up the next generation and the ones after that, and I want to stay involved too! If I'm the oldest person on stage, so be it. Fortunately our keys player on Sunday is 2 years older than me - we had four teenagers playing and singing. Increasingly the lines are getting blurred between our youth and Sunday bands and that's great. The kids get the chance to help lead worship and bring some freshness to proceedings, and some of us oldies (I'm 37!) play with the youth band to help bring some stability, order and experience.

So I'm all for the next generation stepping up and I'm planning on keeping pace with them!

[TodB]

Originally Posted by SoVeryTired

some of us oldies (I'm 37!)

Not to worry, you're still a kid. One of my basses turns 37 this year, and I bought it new! (I'm 56).

[TodB]

Originally Posted by Sethbass

I have played for 20 years and this is a pretty big deal for me... And the page has turned!

I know it's hard, but it sounds like the right call. There's really only one vote for the basic direction of the church and that's the pastor. If that direction doesn't work for you then your only vote is with your feet. It's no fun, but it's not as destructive as butting heads with the pastor trying to go one way and a member trying to go a different way.

FWIW, it didn't seem to take very long to start playing when I found myself in a new church. Especially if you end up at a church where you already know people they know that you can play and it doesn't seem to take long for the phone to ring. I would worry less about finding a church with an open spot for you to do your thing and focus instead on finding a church where you can buy into all the rest of what they are doing. The playing thing will take care of itself soon enough.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by TodB

...I would worry less about finding a church with an open spot for you to do your thing and focus instead on finding a church where you can buy into all the rest of what they are doing. The playing thing will take care of itself soon enough.

This.

I just switched churches after 4 years at a new church plant.

As a musician, I had calls from various churches in the area, but it took us over a year to find one that felt like it could be home to my whole family.

Since we switched, we've had all kinds of confirmation that it's better for our children, and for our spiritual growth as a family. Ironically, this one was the hardest for me, because they have a mandatory 6-month rest period before you can become directly involved in ministry.

Still, I feel that this was by far and away the best choice for us. There are always lots of other opportunities to make music, but you can only have one true church home.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by TodB

...If that direction doesn't work for you then your only vote is with your feet. It's no fun, but it's not as destructive as butting heads with the pastor trying to go one way and a member trying to go a different way.

I agree with this, as well. I loved what my last church was doing for the university crowd, and enjoyed being part of that mission. Although I was way outside of the demographic (I turned 58 in October), I was rarely made to feel self-conscious about my my age.

However, I had problems with the pastor's philosophy on leadership and pastoral care. I tried for 4 years to support him and to be his friend, but in the end, I had to acknowledge that a.) he wasn't interested, and b.) we saw the world through very different lenses.

Once I understood that this was a deliberate direction, and not just an accident, it only made sense to leave. To stay and be a thorn in his side would have been unjust, especially when his direction was clearly serving and pleasing a large demographic.

[SoVeryTired]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I agree with this, as well. I loved what my last church was doing for the university crowd, and enjoyed being part of that mission. Although I was way outside of the demographic (I turned 58 in October), I was rarely made to feel self-conscious about my my age.

However, I had problems with the pastor's philosophy on leadership and pastoral care. I tried for 4 years to support him and to be his friend, but in the end, I had to acknowledge that a.) he wasn't interested, and b.) we saw the world through very different lenses.

Once I understood that this was a deliberate direction, and not just an accident, it only made sense to leave. To stay and be a thorn in his side would have been unjust, especially when his direction was clearly serving and pleasing a large demographic.

Yep, sometimes you've got to agree that you're heading in different directions and go your separate ways. I was just reading Acts 15 yesterday. Neither Paul or Barnabas are described as right or wrong, just disagreeing on staffing and strategy. They separated and possibly were more effective apart, each reaching different areas and people.

[steve_rolfeca]

That's partly why there are so many churches!

The one I'm attending now could be quite fairly called a "flaky arts church". It's a place of rest for the lost and wounded, and a temporary home for missionaries and pastors that are in training or between assignments.

Worship is long, and easels are always available for congregants who want to paint during the service. The worship teams sound more like the Dave Matthews Band than U2, and drum solos (gasp) are sometimes taken. Services are long, sermons are short but pointed and very biblical, and children and adults drift in and out as needed.

We love it, but it would not seem comfortable to most of the buttoned-down young suburban couples at our old church...

[Sethbass]

@steve_rolfeca yeah that sounds about my speed.. May i ask what and where your church is?
Otherwise, one final thought and opinion on performance over worship? It is the role (or job really) of the worship leaders, that is those leading the worship, to sort of be a cheer leader? Stop me if I am wrong! IE the music leaders of ancient went to battle first why? To get the men prepared for battle! No mention as to where their heart is! Just get the warriors ready for battle... If by extension my job is to get members of the church ready for their spiritual battle then performance is almost required. A cheering on of sorts!
It is up to me to bring the believers into a place of worship and if I have to play with a little dynamics and movement the so be it! Or if I stand stll and play root notes and what have you then I am not living up to my calling!

Ok---just that! RSVP.. .

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Sethbass

@steve_rolfeca yeah that sounds about my speed.. May i ask what and where your church is?

Forest City Destiny Church, London, Ontario, Canada.

[TodB]

Originally Posted by Sethbass

Otherwise, one final thought and opinion on performance over worship? It is the role (or job really) of the worship leaders, that is those leading the worship, to sort of be a cheer leader? Stop me if I am wrong! IE the music leaders of ancient went to battle first why? To get the men prepared for battle! No mention as to where their heart is! Just get the warriors ready for battle... If by extension my job is to get members of the church ready for their spiritual battle then performance is almost required. A cheering on of sorts!
It is up to me to bring the believers into a place of worship and if I have to play with a little dynamics and movement the so be it! Or if I stand stll and play root notes and what have you then I am not living up to my calling!

Analogies can be tricky because the example you point to isn't usually 100% the same as what is going on now. So, it's easy to pick a small piece that supports your point of view but miss the big picture.

The real role of the worship team is to serve the church. You can talk all you want about ancient Israelites marching off to battle but if you aren't in fact serving the needs of your local church in the here and now your analogy doesn't add up to much. Sometimes serving the church can mean being expressive, especially when the people on the platform are in effect giving permission for the people in the seats to be more open in worship, and that's the direction that particular church is trying to go. Other times, hitting roots and fifths and staying out of the way is what the church needs, no matter how boring it is to the bass player. It's a matter of context, direction, and strategy for that particular situation.

Footnote: That's probably about enough sermonizing from a stranger. I'll shut up now.

[TodB]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Forest City Destiny Church, London, Ontario, Canada.

Cool. I spent the 90s in Vineyard churches when John Arnott and the Toronto Airport Vineyard were a pretty big deal. Interesting times.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Sethbass

...It is the role (or job really) of the worship leaders, that is those leading the worship, to sort of be a cheer leader? Stop me if I am wrong!

...If by extension my job is to get members of the church ready for their spiritual battle then performance is almost required. A cheering on of sorts!

It is up to me to bring the believers into a place of worship and if I have to play with a little dynamics and movement the so be it! Or if I stand stll and play root notes and what have you then I am not living up to my calling!

This is a rich and complex subject, with many layers, and so many different positions that can be taken (and can be defended biblically).

I'm not qualified for that kind of deep discussion, so just a few thoughts off the top of my head, in no particular order of importance:

1. Whose job is worship, anyway?

Over the last year, I've been playing at conferences that draw a more active audience. There's no sense of needing to drag them up off the pew- these people are down at the front almost before the downbeat.

This has taught me that maybe it's not our job to yank people into worship against their will, but to simply facilitate it. To be honest, this is all new to me, and I'm not even sure what that looks like yet.

2. The bible teaches us not to judge by outward appearances.

I suspect that there are still, quiet worshippers who revere God just as deeply as some of the people waving flags and dancing like crazy at charismatic events. I also suspect that some people who are a blur of motion on the outside are just going through the motions, and that inside, they may be just as spiritually "stuck" as anyone else.

I can find references in the bible where men were required to fight with all their might, and others where they were called to simply stand. IME, neither approach is intrinsically right, except when viewed in the context of God's will for that particular moment.

3. One style of music (ring) to unite them all?

The most skillful worship leader I know locally, a woman named Katherine Marquis, has a tremendously wide expressive range, from boisterous to deeply quiet and intimate, and the ability to take the rest of the band there with her.

She also has a tremendous gift for listening and observing while she leads. Katherine would never flog a congregation with more volume or intensity than she felt the group could handle. Our set lists are very fluid.

I've seen a lot in my travels with her. Here is just one example:

A church was recovering from a church split. Half the congregation invited us, with the intention of showing the other half how worship "is really done". The other half were only there to judge and condemn.

You could have cut the tension with a knife. We did what we would normally consider a pretty reserved set, and it still felt like rolling water uphill.

During the break, Katherine preached a brief sermon about choices, taking offense, unforgiveness, judging by appearances, the subjective nature of the boundary between noise and music, and how we tend to judge music according to personal preferences rather than spiritual or biblical standards.

By the end of her talk, you could have heard a pin drop. She brought us back for the second set, started soft, and gradually pulled us up to an intensity level that I would have thought impossible for that crowd. And we got away with it. In fact, there were people in tears after we finished. We even saw people talking to former friends, who had become bitter enemies over the church split.

Each time we go back to that church, the feeling there is a little lighter, and a little more open.

Two years ago, I would have had no comment on this subject. But after watching Katherine work, I now feel that anyone who fights a congregation, taking a stand and saying "this is how I do it, and I have to be me", lacks maturity as a worship leader.

Corinthians 9:19-23 comes to mind...

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by TodB

Cool. I spent the 90s in Vineyard churches when John Arnott and the Toronto Airport Vineyard were a pretty big deal. Interesting times.

Ivan and Isabel (lead pastors at FCDC) were heavily involved with Airport Vineyard, back in the day.

It's early days yet, but my impression of this congregation is that it's picked up some of the best aspects of the Vineyard movement, without some of its excesses. Time will tell...

[english4bw]

Heard an interesting perspective from the Presbyterian Minister I work with at a local mission today. When we got into a discussion about what is "acceptable worship music" she asked me the always stumping question,
Q "who gave us music?"
A God.
Q "so how can any of it be unacceptable if He gave it to us?"
A hmmmm...

Kinda threw me for a loop. Is my definition of "worship music" merely a subjective and individual expression? And if so, can anyone else's subjective and individual expression (even those that I find irrelevant or distasteful) actually be incorrect? No.

So getting back to the question of "generational" gaps in choices regarding contemporary vs. traditional hymn worship music; God gave us ALL of it, so the challenge we feel is in our HUMAN inability to accept each other's different subjective ideas about what is worthy.

Really challenged the heck out of my convictions regarding that subject today.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by english4bw

So getting back to the question of "generational" gaps in choices regarding contemporary vs. traditional hymn worship music; God gave us ALL of it, so the challenge we feel is in our HUMAN inability to accept each other's different subjective ideas about what is worthy.

+1

Just because something unfamiliar feels bad, doesn't mean that it IS bad. The sooner a musician gets over that internal misconception, the sooner they are ready to progress.

Our nervous systems were all wired the same way by God. We experience the sounds that touch us as "good music", and anything we don't like as "noise." Generally, we're touched by sounds that are familiar, with just enough of a twist to make them interesting. So our definition of good is tied to the familiar, and strongly influenced by culture.

Whether you learn this out on the casuals circuit, or from a conversation with your pastor, it's an essential part of your growth as a musician.

It's how studio guys still get excited about going into work every day, and it's how a worship musician deals with too many hymns or too few, root-only bass parts, ham-fisted keyboard players, and all the rest.

[throughthefire]

@Steve - I can't really contribute to this debate (unless I weighed in with stories of why we left our previous church, which aren't necessary).

I just want to say that I really like reading your posts. I always learn something from them!

Regards,

Pete