The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 23

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

This whole issue of "who drives the song" etc. is a sensitive issue for me, but I'm also VERY aware of the fact that each is entitled to his/her opinion (and, of course, they are right; and if there is any doubt, that does mean always!).

So, my job, as I see it, is to
1) provide the harmonic foundation for everyone to pitch against, including the vocals (yes, singers really do sing better when they listen to the bass as opposed to e.g. a piano which they can no longer hear because they are singing the same note!),
2) provide a solid groove for the drummer to add little 'flary' bits on top of, and also indicate to everyone where the song should be quieter or provide the drive to propel it to new heights,
3) provide a solid 'down beat' somehow so that everyone can change to the next note (or group of notes) together!

But not forgetting, this is all done under the leadership of the WL. He/she is the bus driver, I'm the engine!

p.s. OK, there will be time the bassist is not playing; this is when the timekeeping 'baton' is gracefully handed to another instrument, including vocals if the need arises, but the moment the bassist comes back in, then whoever was controlling timing needs to realize it's time to hand the 'baton' back to the 'baton master'.

Sigh. Been there, done that...

[quote=sasred;13824262...The revelation about our sound system I mention above explains some of the complication I have filling my role, which I very much see as being in the terms you describe. We're a low-tech, all-volunteer outfit--no click track, no in-ears, drummer behind acoustic shield with board mix on monitor, WL is electric guitarist with scads more music experience than the rest of us. One drummer rushes EVERY tempo, other drops beats and gets off-track. Whenever that happens, I try to dig in a bit more...but now that I know he probably can't hear it... Meanwhile, when we have trouble locking tempo, the WL will tell the drummer to follow HIM...gets me scratching my head.[/QUOTE]

No flames, just a sense of sadness.

These posts are both spot-on. In a situation where at least half of the team don't know what they're doing, somebody's got to step up to the plate, and try to make the best of a bad thing.

At the same time, they are symptomatic of a deeply dysfunctional situation. I grew up around my dad (a jazz musician who also had deep ties with classical music) and his friends. I would only consider them 2nd-tier players, as there were no big names involved...

...Yet it was clearly understood that time was EVERYBODY's responsibility. A trumpet player who couldn't set and hold a groove, wouldn't get a second call. Ditto for keys, vibes, sax, clarinet, guitar,drums,etc. The basic entry fee to the club, was the ability to swing like mad, and to be able to join into a fluid, elastic, ongoing conversation about time, expressed via the muscular ebb and flow of the music.

If your time was too "white", if you couldn't hold a tempo, or if you openly expressed amateurish notions about any one instrument being the "bus driver" or "the engine", you were politely but firmly shown the door, long before you ever set foot on the stage. Rejects weren't necessarily bad musicians, they just weren't ready for prime time.

I don't understand how church music got to the sorry state it's in.

I'm not big on mainstream pop music. When I go out to concerts, they tend to be in small, low-budget venues, and the artists tend to be indie performers with fairly small followings- folks like Don Ross, Jacob Moon, Carolyn Arends, Michael Manring, and Jay Calder. The PA systems tend to be older and more basic than the ones I hear in most churches, yet the sound is always pristine, and beautifully balanced. The musicians get out of rental cars instead of tour buses, yet the performances are always jaw-dropping.

And then Sunday rolls around, and I measure church sound people and worship teams by a separate yardstick, where not completely sucking is the new OK, and most contemporary worship performances sound like dumbed-down variations on U2 or [insert name of secular pop band here], except that they're minus the flair and the passionate, skillful delivery.

It wasn't always this way. A lot of the great classical works were commissioned by or for the church, and the church was a bastion of high art, not just in music, but in sculpture and painting as well.

[english4bw]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I'm not big on mainstream pop music. When I go out to concerts, they tend to be in small, low-budget venues, and the artists tend to be indie performers with fairly small followings- folks like Don Ross, Jacob Moon, Carolyn Arends, Michael Manring, and Jay Calder. The PA systems tend to be older and more basic than the ones I hear in most churches, yet the sound is always pristine, and beautifully balanced. The musicians get out of rental cars instead of tour buses, yet the performances are always jaw-dropping.

And then Sunday rolls around, and I measure church sound people and worship teams by a separate yardstick, where not completely sucking is the new OK, and most contemporary worship performances sound like dumbed-down variations on U2 or [insert name of secular pop band here], except that they're minus the flair and the passionate, skillful delivery.

It wasn't always this way. A lot of the great classical works were commissioned by or for the church, and the church was a bastion of high art, not just in music, but in sculpture and painting as well.

Jacob Moon is amazing... we had to follow him on at Queensway Cathedral 2 years ago when we backed-up Mia Fieldes. Daunting to say the least.

And yeah... not sure why we settle for 75% (or even less) from our musicians. For some reason we accept a lower standard even though GOD is supposed to be the object of worship. Personally I blame this "culture of encouragement" nonsense that goes on. Sure... it raises up a few people now and then, but to what level of the bar?

And now... another gratuitous shot from our recent jam outside of church last weekend: the kid next to me is half my age but he's an excellent guitarist.

[TodB]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I don't understand how church music got to the sorry state it's in.

I'm not usually too big on longing for the "good old days" because frequently they weren't that good until everybody forgot the flaws. I suspect that for every Mozart there were 1,000 contemporaries of Mozart whom we never heard of, for good reason. I don't know about 300 years ago, but church music 40-50 years ago certainly wasn't a "golden age".

I typed up a few paragraphs of my pet peeves about why so much church music is crappy and deleted them, twice. I suspect that there are still a few Mozarts out there, but most of us are like the 1,000 other composers of Mozart's time that we've never heard of. You just do the best you can even if we can't all be Mozart.

[TodB]

Originally Posted by MissingHighs

This whole issue of "who drives the song" etc. is a sensitive issue for me, but I'm also VERY aware of the fact that each is entitled to his/her opinion (and, of course, they are right; and if there is any doubt, that does mean always!).

The guitarist will always say they are the most important sound, the keys player the keys, the drummer the drummer, et al. But, I've mixed loads of live music and whenever the bassist is listened to by everyone, including the drummer, the whole thing just "comes together". I look at my position (please, I do not do so with a conceited approach, but a very humble one) as being I'm only playing one note at a time. Everyone else has complicated things to do, including a drummer (grief, he/she has four limbs each clocking out a different rhythm!), so why not use my spare capacity and put this into helping everyone keep time.

So, my job, as I see it, is to
1) provide the harmonic foundation for everyone to pitch against, including the vocals (yes, singers really do sing better when they listen to the bass as opposed to e.g. a piano which they can no longer hear because they are singing the same note!),
2) provide a solid groove for the drummer to add little 'flary' bits on top of, and also indicate to everyone where the song should be quieter or provide the drive to propel it to new heights,
3) provide a solid 'down beat' somehow so that everyone can change to the next note (or group of notes) together!

But not forgetting, this is all done under the leadership of the WL. He/she is the bus driver, I'm the engine!

p.s. OK, there will be time the bassist is not playing; this is when the timekeeping 'baton' is gracefully handed to another instrument, including vocals if the need arises, but the moment the bassist comes back in, then whoever was controlling timing needs to realize it's time to hand the 'baton' back to the 'baton master'.

OK, Now, fire away! I know there will those who wanna shoot me down in flames.

You could do a whole long study on the difference between "power" and "influence". Basically when people have "power" they tend to screw it up, especially the Church, while "influence" is more subtle but frequently more effective.

I see my role as helping keep the band on tempo, but without asserting the power trip of "everybody follow me". It's not the drummer's job to always follow me, but it's my job to notice if the drummer is wandering, and if he is I'll turn around and get in his face (very nicely of course) so that we lock in. I don't have to be louder to do that. Eye contact and waiving the neck a bit works just fine.

More generally, what I play depends on what everybody else is playing. If we aren't locking in then I'll play a lot of quarters and eighths, and make sure everybody can tell where "one" is. I don't need a chain of command and don't need to tell anybody to follow me. I just try to make it easier for them to play better.

[sweetthing06]

^^
Wow, good stuff. I'm so glad I follow this thread. So much wisdom.

[muljoe]

Does anyone here know of a good mid week service in San Diego? I'm here for work the next two weeks

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Sigh. Been there, done that...



No flames, just a sense of sadness.

These posts are both spot-on. In a situation where at least half of the team don't know what they're doing, somebody's got to step up to the plate, and try to make the best of a bad thing.

At the same time, they are symptomatic of a deeply dysfunctional situation. I grew up around my dad (a jazz musician who also had deep ties with classical music) and his friends. I would only consider them 2nd-tier players, as there were no big names involved...

...Yet it was clearly understood that time was EVERYBODY's responsibility. A trumpet player who couldn't set and hold a groove, wouldn't get a second call. Ditto for keys, vibes, sax, clarinet, guitar,drums,etc. The basic entry fee to the club, was the ability to swing like mad, and to be able to join into a fluid, elastic, ongoing conversation about time, expressed via the muscular ebb and flow of the music.

If your time was too "white", if you couldn't hold a tempo, or if you openly expressed amateurish notions about any one instrument being the "bus driver" or "the engine", you were politely but firmly shown the door, long before you ever set foot on the stage. Rejects weren't necessarily bad musicians, they just weren't ready for prime time.

I don't understand how church music got to the sorry state it's in.

I'm not big on mainstream pop music. When I go out to concerts, they tend to be in small, low-budget venues, and the artists tend to be indie performers with fairly small followings- folks like Don Ross, Jacob Moon, Carolyn Arends, Michael Manring, and Jay Calder. The PA systems tend to be older and more basic than the ones I hear in most churches, yet the sound is always pristine, and beautifully balanced. The musicians get out of rental cars instead of tour buses, yet the performances are always jaw-dropping.

And then Sunday rolls around, and I measure church sound people and worship teams by a separate yardstick, where not completely sucking is the new OK, and most contemporary worship performances sound like dumbed-down variations on U2 or [insert name of secular pop band here], except that they're minus the flair and the passionate, skillful delivery.

It wasn't always this way. A lot of the great classical works were commissioned by or for the church, and the church was a bastion of high art, not just in music, but in sculpture and painting as well.

Spot on.
My church holds auditions. If youre skill set isnt up to the standards that are required, then you dont make it.
You are given the opportunity to attend rehearsals and be mentored by senior members of the team, but just because you can play an instrument and attend the church, doesnt mean you are playing.

Its harsh yes.

Ive also been looking for a CCM P&W band to play with.
While the few I have spoken with, the member have their hearts in the right place, they wouldnt make it through an audition for any of the secular groups I play with.
Wanting to play and use your/my gifts for His glory does not mean you have put youself in a position to just settle.

Go ahead and flame me, but its kind of how I feel these days.

[aServantLeader]

Interesting topic.

Again Who are we doing this for?

If the Spirit moves then who are we to judge what is good enough?

Yes there needs to be talent, and perfection strived for to an extent BUT if not careful you lose the heart of worship.

I know the pains of a Lead guitarist as W/L telling the drummer or myself to get the tempo right where he wants it because he has his Line 6 mod set to the proper tempo (heaven forbid he just use the tap button to adjust)

Fortunately in a series of unfortunate events he is no longer W/L, not even at our church.

I and the acoustic guitarist as co-W/L and it is working quite well thus far. There has been a peace that has settled in this transition too.

Perhaps I am just to strict on myself due to my physical limitations to think that I am accomplished bassist, I do know that when God's anointing is on it..."it's all good"

[rotis]

Originally Posted by TodB

I'm not usually too big on longing for the "good old days" because frequently they weren't that good until everybody forgot the flaws. I suspect that for every Mozart there were 1,000 contemporaries of Mozart whom we never heard of, for good reason. I don't know about 300 years ago, but church music 40-50 years ago certainly wasn't a "golden age".

I typed up a few paragraphs of my pet peeves about why so much church music is crappy and deleted them, twice. I suspect that there are still a few Mozarts out there, but most of us are like the 1,000 other composers of Mozart's time that we've never heard of. You just do the best you can even if we can't all be Mozart.

^^^
BAM! That's it right there.

The average Church is about 100 people. I doubt there has ever been a Mozart for every 100 people in the history of the world. Let alone 6 Mozart's who can perform together.

There is never an excuse for lack of excellence. But at some point you have to go with what you have and work on getting better.

Bad sounding worship is painful, but it's not as bad as the pastor standing up at the beginning of the service in saying "we aren't having worship today because I didn't think anybody was good enough to lead it."

[Jhengsman]

Originally Posted by rotis

^^^
BAM! That's it right there.

The average Church is about 100 people. I doubt there has ever been a Mozart for every 100 people in the history of the world. Let alone 6 Mozart's who can perform together.

There is never an excuse for lack of excellence. But at some point you have to go with what you have and work on getting better.

Bad sounding worship is painful, but it's not as bad as the pastor standing up at the beginning of the service in saying "we aren't having worship today because I didn't think anybody was good enough to lead it."

Or having the singers buy karaoke tracks to sing to. To be fair in many cases they are just as good as the iconic worship leader/singer even if the band does not match Nashville pros

[Paladin54]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

I don't understand how church music got to the sorry state it's in.

It wasn't always this way. A lot of the great classical works were commissioned by or for the church, and the church was a bastion of high art, not just in music, but in sculpture and painting as well.

Because one day people woke up and realized that they don't have to be "The Best" to praise the Lord with music.

Would I pass auditions for most of the churches most of you play for? Certainly not. But if we held such auditions would we have a praise band at all? No we probably wouldn't or it would be much smaller.

Does that make our praise to the Lord less than yours? No I don't think so.

Do we expect at least some ability? Sure we do. But you don't have to be great, or all "5 talent people". If you've only got just 1 talent just don't bury it in your tent while the master is away. Use it, and get something for it, even if it just a little.

No matter how many Psalms and other verses I read I never see the words Sing to the Lord those who can sing well and keep a beat.

Out there are loads of people who are good enough to praise the Lord with their abilities, but not good enough for "the church" and that's too bad.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by muljoe

Does anyone here know of a good mid week service in San Diego? I'm here for work the next two weeks

Calvary Chapel SD or Horizon Christian Fellowship both have Wed night study.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

Because one day people woke up and realized that they don't have to be "The Best" to praise the Lord with music.

Would I pass auditions for most of the churches most of you play for? Certainly not. But if we held such auditions would we have a praise band at all? No we probably wouldn't or it would be much smaller.

Does that make our praise to the Lord less than yours? No I don't think so.

Do we expect at least some ability? Sure we do. But you don't have to be great, or all "5 talent people". If you've only got just 1 talent just don't bury it in your tent while the master is away. Use it, and get something for it, even if it just a little.

No matter how many Psalms and other verses I read I never see the words Sing to the Lord those who can sing well and keep a beat.

Out there are loads of people who are good enough to praise the Lord with their abilities, but not good enough for "the church" and that's too bad.

I'm no pro but my church was gracious enough to give me space & time to improve (bass & drums). In general--church or not--we ought to help out those who suck, let them get better, & in time it becomes something beautiful. But if someone's just terrible & distracting, & makes people cringe, then you don't put them on, just train them until they're ready. Wouldn't you do that in any situation?
A tight worship band is a beautiful thing.

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by rotis

^^^
BAM! That's it right there.

The average Church is about 100 people. I doubt there has ever been a Mozart for every 100 people in the history of the world. Let alone 6 Mozart's who can perform together.

There is never an excuse for lack of excellence. But at some point you have to go with what you have and work on getting better.

Bad sounding worship is painful, but it's not as bad as the pastor standing up at the beginning of the service in saying "we aren't having worship today because I didn't think anybody was good enough to lead it."

Originally Posted by Jhengsman

Or having the singers buy karaoke tracks to sing to. To be fair in many cases they are just as good as the iconic worship leader/singer even if the band does not match Nashville pros

We're lucky because our church is large. Very large.
And I understand that most churches are not afforded that number of people to have to pick from.
I also understand that you do have to go with what you have so to speak.

Originally Posted by aServantLeader

Interesting topic.

Again Who are we doing this for?

If the Spirit moves then who are we to judge what is good enough?

Yes there needs to be talent, and perfection strived for to an extent BUT if not careful you lose the heart of worship.

I know the pains of a Lead guitarist as W/L telling the drummer or myself to get the tempo right where he wants it because he has his Line 6 mod set to the proper tempo (heaven forbid he just use the tap button to adjust)

Fortunately in a series of unfortunate events he is no longer W/L, not even at our church.

I and the acoustic guitarist as co-W/L and it is working quite well thus far. There has been a peace that has settled in this transition too.

Perhaps I am just to strict on myself due to my physical limitations to think that I am accomplished bassist, I do know that when God's anointing is on it..."it's all good"

I guess it comes down to the hard point that most people don't want to discuss for fear as being looked down and judged upon:
Drawing a line between the serving heart and the ability.
Sometimes they are not on equal ground and you have to pass.
And that goes BOTH directions.
We've had some seriously talented, top shelf first call musicians that we have declined because their heart wasn't in the right place.
That's "OK" for pretty much most. But decline someone because someone with a massive heart for worship but the basic skill level just isn't there, and all of a sudden it's "wrong".

Again, I'm looking at this from a slightly different perspective because we are a very large church.
I'd bet we have more than 100 musicians on or music team alone. (We have a weekly "band rotation". you are on pretty much one weekend a month- 1st weekend, 2nd weekend etc...)

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

Because one day people woke up and realized that they don't have to be "The Best" to praise the Lord with music.

Would I pass auditions for most of the churches most of you play for? Certainly not. But if we held such auditions would we have a praise band at all? No we probably wouldn't or it would be much smaller.

Does that make our praise to the Lord less than yours? No I don't think so.

Do we expect at least some ability? Sure we do. But you don't have to be great, or all "5 talent people". If you've only got just 1 talent just don't bury it in your tent while the master is away. Use it, and get something for it, even if it just a little.

No matter how many Psalms and other verses I read I never see the words Sing to the Lord those who can sing well and keep a beat.

Out there are loads of people who are good enough to praise the Lord with their abilities, but not good enough for "the church" and that's too bad.

I put in bold because its not about one better than the other.
Not at all.

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

I'm no pro but my church was gracious enough to give me space & time to improve (bass & drums). In general--church or not--we ought to help out those who suck, let them get better, & in time it becomes something beautiful. But if someone's just terrible & distracting, & makes people cringe, then you don't put them on, just train them until they're ready. Wouldn't you do that in any situation?
A tight worship band is a beautiful thing.

I agree with this.
And most I have spoken to will disagree with you and me when it's brought up.

BTW...any of you guys on here:
http://www.praiseandworshipforum.com/

[aServantLeader]

Originally Posted by MikeBass

We're lucky because our church is large. Very large.
And I understand that most churches are not afforded that number of people to have to pick from.
I also understand that you do have to go with what you have so to speak.




I guess it comes down to the hard point that most people don't want to discuss for fear as being looked down and judged upon:
Drawing a line between the serving heart and the ability.
Sometimes they are not on equal ground and you have to pass.
And that goes BOTH directions.
We've had some seriously talented, top shelf first call musicians that we have declined because their heart wasn't in the right place.
That's "OK" for pretty much most. But decline someone because someone with a massive heart for worship but the basic skill level just isn't there, and all of a sudden it's "wrong".

Again, I'm looking at this from a slightly different perspective because we are a very large church.
I'd bet we have more than 100 musicians on or music team alone. (We have a weekly "band rotation". you are on pretty much one weekend a month- 1st weekend, 2nd weekend etc...)

THAT, I can understand when you are a church of that size, and you are correct there is that fear about being judgmental.

We average about 170 a week, so yes we are small and we are lucky to have a drummer, acoustic guitarist, and bassist that can get it together enough to lead worship.

And like I said before, I do not flaunt the title "bassist", I have only been playing for just over three years, and with a right arm/hand that lacks fine motor movement (simplest way to describe it) I play the best I can, fortunately the "best I have" works with what we have.



Mike, I am not judging you either on this, I can see a church getting to the size where you can pick and choose so to speak. Also thank you for the other forum reference, never knew about that one.

[SteveC]

I admit that I like to play with the "A" team at church. We have played together - in and out of church - for a long time. We are tight, confident and play. People seem to enjoy when we lead worship. We play 2-3 times a month. There is another group (whomever is available, not really a consistent group) that spells us that obviously isn't as tight or confident. I sit in sometimes when they need help, but it isn't as fun/rewarding for me. It's work. (FWIW/FYI - we don't get paid.) I end up having to keep the drummer on track, the other players aren't as confident, etc. It's just not as good.

We don't have a lot of people in the pool to pick from so we kind of have to take what we get and we are fortunate that the "A" team is available. Is it wrong to like/prefer/want to play with the best people possible? I don't know. It is leading worship, but honestly, you can't completely ignore the performance part of it...again, right or wrong. We're only human.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by MikeBass

I put in bold because its not about one better than the other.
Not at all.



I agree with this.
And most I have spoken to will disagree with you and me when it's brought up.

BTW...any of you guys on here:
http://www.praiseandworshipforum.com/

Really? It's up to the leader to call that shot but I wouldn't put someone up to it.
We have a few guys on our team who are awesome but all they wnat to do is guitar god metal solo. All day. Allllll day. Then there are keyboardists--some very good, some horrific. They want to jazz it up all day. They don't listen. Now pick your poison but neither group is following the leader's lead; they're not playing the song. As far as I know they're playing the wrong song. But they're experts; they're yngwie malmstein & stevie wonder. If it were up to me I'd snap them out of it because at that moment their eyes are on themselves & the gold medal (there is none).
You have to balance out every aspect. I think that makes it best. Y'all want to give it your best don't you?
In one college I went to a professor had grading criteria: "CAT" as he called it--creativity, assignment, technique. It's a pretty good method. I go by it for myself & my freelance gigs but I amended one criterion--soul. Does it got soul? Can't really measure that. That professor also used to say, why should I look at your work? And, when you think you're done & ready, step away for a day, come back & tell yourself you're halfway through & proceed to improve.
Anyway, we do what we can. I also found that barbecue with your team helps people get tighter & get along better. Pray together, practice together, barbecue together. I should run for worship band philosophy president!

[aServantLeader]

Chuck you bring up VERY great points, the BBQ is one that I am hoping to implement a few times this year.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I admit that I like to play with the "A" team at church. We have played together - in and out of church - for a long time. We are tight, confident and play. People seem to enjoy when we lead worship. We play 2-3 times a month. There is another group (whomever is available, not really a consistent group) that spells us that obviously isn't as tight or confident. I sit in sometimes when they need help, but it isn't as fun/rewarding for me. It's work. (FWIW/FYI - we don't get paid.) I end up having to keep the drummer on track, the other players aren't as confident, etc. It's just not as good.

We don't have a lot of people in the pool to pick from so we kind of have to take what we get and we are fortunate that the "A" team is available. Is it wrong to like/prefer/want to play with the best people possible? I don't know. It is leading worship, but honestly, you can't completely ignore the performance part of it...again, right or wrong. We're only human.

Not wrong but wouldn't it be nice if A Team helped B Team to improve & you had two rad teams?