The Praise and Worship Band Bassists Club part 23

[slobake]

Originally Posted by Bakkster_Man

I'm not sure it's necessarily anti-intellectual (at least not everywhere). There seems to be a wider ranging anti-performance mindset. I hear a lot that church shouldn't be 'like going to a rock concert', as in, going to see a band perform rather than going to worship with a band. I think somewhere along the way the idea of high quality musicianship was a casualty of trying to make the worship more corporate.

Mentioning gospel is one example. I sure can't play it to save my life, but when we do stretch and do something venturing more to that end of the spectrum the congregation always responds positively. In this case, the band stretching its chops doesn't detract from worship as the 'performance' worry goes, it enhances it.

So of course the education plays a big role as well (can't have a corporate worship if the congregation can't sing it, let alone if the band can't play it), but I think it got pushed out in favor of simpler songs partly because that's all the congregations could sing, rather than the other way around.

It has me thinking of the church scene in Blues Brothers, though. Worship without the congregation singing, mostly dancing. Still corporate and participatory, just without needing to be words.

For my little family of worshipers it starts with why we are playing music. The first answer is because it pleases God when we worship Him. How do we know if our worship is good? Can we judge it by the quality of our music? Can we judge it by what we see in the congregation? I think neither of those is correct. Some people are very boisterous when they worship God and others are quite and still. So, how do we know? I think the only real measure is where my heart is at. Am I focused on glorifying Him in the best way I can? The rest is up to God and not my job. I'm not saying we don't need to practice and work at being the best musicians we can but I am saying how people react to what we do is out of my hands. We do try and play music that worships God and that the congregation likes.
Also how we treat each other is important. I know of churches where the band members are egostical, competitive and outright harsh with other members. One church has a "hack room" that they go to after each service. If anyone including the band, the sound person, the lights people, the overheads people makes a mistake they get hacked. We need to call each other up but there is a right way to do it. If the band members don't like each other it will show in their worship and it goes against why we are there in the first place.
The church I call home is small and we have a six piece band that plays every week and none of us are professional musicians. When one member can't make it we just make do. Sometimes we are complete, sometimes we are an acoustic trio. We play a lot of Jesus Culture, Hillsong etc, plus originals that different band members write. We also have poets that recite, hula worship and have had prophetic painting. We let people worship how ever they want , we are very loose.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by Jhengsman

In our case it is not just the music, but how the congregation responds. The seniors, mostly white Americans are always reminding us we are a pentecostal church. Maybe thinkingback to the day of "Jesus Freaks" when pop music styles and more let's call it energenic praise among the congregation was happening.

The church elders and currently serving leadership tends to be dominated by Nigerians and on those occaisions when we get going they will start to dance and they were gthe ones who encouraged me to dance while I played.

Now the newest members of our church are Chinese who have supplanted the kids of the White seniors and make up the bulk of the local community. They will learn from the Nigerian elders or the church will move in the other direction over the next 20 years. Right now we fill a niche in our valley but we all most adapt and grow, or die.

Yeah but have you been to Donut Man? Strawberry is back in season!

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by slobake

For my little family of worshipers it starts with why we are playing music. The first answer is because it pleases God when we worship Him. How do we know if our worship is good? Can we judge it by the quality of our music? Can we judge it by what we see in the congregation? I think neither of those is correct. Some people are very boisterous when they worship God and others are quite and still. So, how do we know? I think the only real measure is where my heart is at. Am I focused on glorifying Him in the best way I can? The rest is up to God and not my job. I'm not saying we don't need to practice and work at being the best musicians we can but I am saying how people react to what we do is out of my hands. We do try and play music that worships God and that the congregation likes.
Also how we treat each other is important. I know of churches where the band members are egostical, competitive and outright harsh with other members. One church has a "hack room" that they go to after each service. If anyone including the band, the sound person, the lights people, the overheads people makes a mistake they get hacked. We need to call each other up but there is a right way to do it. If the band members don't like each other it will show in their worship and it goes against why we are there in the first place.
The church I call home is small and we have a six piece band that plays every week and none of us are professional musicians. When one member can't make it we just make do. Sometimes we are complete, sometimes we are an acoustic trio. We play a lot of Jesus Culture, Hillsong etc, plus originals that different band members write. We also have poets that recite, hula worship and have had prophetic painting. We let people worship how ever they want , we are very loose.

That's cool. What church is this in SF?

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by rotis

I think the root cause is that most folks in secular bands live for music. I am not inferring the sin of idolatry. I just mean it is their passion. Likewise, I have only met a handful of church musicians who have the same passion.

And to be fair, that is one of the reasons that while I occasionally vent about iffy music programs in church, I don't actually get that bent out of shape about it.

When someone is focused on being an excellent spouse/parent/employee, and doing other interesting ministries on the side, I don't like to carp about their lack of musical practice time.

I like to think that our heavenly Father is more pleased by that sacrifice of praise, than a perfectly executed riff...

[slobake]

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

That's cool. What church is this in SF?

I't called Bay Church, we rent space in the Stonestown Movie theater on Sunday Mornings. We change to movie theater to a church and then back to a movie theater. I call it the weekly miracle.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

And to be fair, that is one of the reasons that while I occasionally vent about iffy music programs in church, I don't actually get that bent out of shape about it.

When someone is focused on being an excellent spouse/parent/employee, and doing other interesting ministries on the side, I don't like to carp about their lack of musical practice time.

I like to think that our heavenly Father is more pleased by that sacrifice of praise, than a perfectly executed riff...

Jeff Carter is from London, Ont!
I don't get bent either but I dislike it when people serve half-ass or they suck to the point of being distracting. This sounds harsh but I assure you I'm not mad. I was given a break (multiple breaks) and accepted at my church despite my shortcomings etc. But my expectation for those serving (or in general) is, people ought to put in a good hand.

[slobake]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

And to be fair, that is one of the reasons that while I occasionally vent about iffy music programs in church, I don't actually get that bent out of shape about it.

When someone is focused on being an excellent spouse/parent/employee, and doing other interesting ministries on the side, I don't like to carp about their lack of musical practice time.

I like to think that our heavenly Father is more pleased by that sacrifice of praise, than a perfectly executed riff...

I hear that. Between helping feed the homeless, visiting a sick friend, leading a group in my home, loving my nieghbors, workin 40 hours a week, taking care of my grandson, spending romantic time with my wife, daily prayer an meditation, studying, etc, etc, ... I can still make time for practice. I'm not complaining I love my life and at 60-years-old I have more juice than I ever have. I know it's not me though.

[chuck norriss]

Originally Posted by slobake

I hear that. Between helping feed the homeless, visiting a sick friend, leading a group in my home, loving my nieghbors, workin 40 hours a week, taking care of my grandson, spending romantic time with my wife, daily prayer an meditation, studying, etc, etc, ... I can still make time for practice. I'm not complaining I love my life and at 60-years-old I have more juice than I ever have. I know it's not me though.

Columbo can do anything.

[english4bw]

Originally Posted by slobake

I't called Bay Church, we rent space in the Stonestown Movie theater on Sunday Mornings. We change to movie theater to a church and then back to a movie theater. I call it the weekly miracle.

We've been doing the same thing in my church for 3+ years now. It's gotten easier now with more people, but it's still a weekly miracle here too. LOL

[praisebass]

Regarding the whole not using standard notation thing, drives me batty. Even in the 'traditional' sanctuary service, we display the words, not the notes on the big screen and very few pull the hymnals from the back of the pews. Not me, boy! I'm all about the dots even though I've been singing in church choirs for over 40 years and have most of the parts memorized. I was working with some Mennonites in Southern Ontario least week though and I was reminded that the oldest Christian hymnal I know of does not contain any musical notation. http://archive.org/stream/ausbunddas...ge/n5/mode/2up

[praisebass]

On another subject, I should also mention that I posted yesterday what I thought was a humors remark about writing worship songs for 'where the congregation is' - today, I get word from the WL - time to write some tunes, buddy.

[english4bw]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I admit that I like to play with the "A" team at church. We have played together - in and out of church - for a long time. We are tight, confident and play. People seem to enjoy when we lead worship. We play 2-3 times a month. There is another group (whomever is available, not really a consistent group) that spells us that obviously isn't as tight or confident. I sit in sometimes when they need help, but it isn't as fun/rewarding for me. It's work. (FWIW/FYI - we don't get paid.) I end up having to keep the drummer on track, the other players aren't as confident, etc. It's just not as good.

We don't have a lot of people in the pool to pick from so we kind of have to take what we get and we are fortunate that the "A" team is available. Is it wrong to like/prefer/want to play with the best people possible? I don't know. It is leading worship, but honestly, you can't completely ignore the performance part of it...again, right or wrong. We're only human.

To bring up an old thread (I've been busy) and give my answer/opinion. Bear with me and excuse my late response.

I facilitate a specific "A Team" band outside of the regularly rostered group of creative team members in my church for one reason only. To raise the bar for those individuals who WANT to go to the next level with their musicianship, and/or participate in a band dynamic that gives one a bit more freedom (especially from time restrictions/liturgical parameters) than they would have in the church service environment per.se.

However... I'm very clear about the PURPOSE and INTENT behind what we do. If one is playing in a worship team based in the church service itself, then a culture of encouragement and fellowship comes into play. Although we strive for excellence, it is expected (and encouraged) that we play with ALL levels of musicians (A-teamers/B-teamers/whatever) in order to sow into EACH OTHER in communion. Bringing one another up, teaching, and loving our fellow team member, regardless of their experience or level.

When it comes the the A-team, we are available to our Senior Pastors for special events, to back-up special guest worship leaders on ocassion, and to bring new material/original songs to the congregation in a highly professional manner.

What I'm saying is... there's a dual purpose to having an "A-team".

a) To be the "face" of the Creative Ministry, when such a thing is called for. This is a huge responsibility, and takes more spiritual maturity and humility than it does musical talent.

b) To be a training ground for others in our church. Not to create a hierarchy of talent, but to be the ones who give something of genuine quality and excellence for others to ASPIRE to, in a humble way. When you set an example of excellence and discipline in your craft, all for the glory of God, others tend to follow in your footsteps. It's sowing into something eternal.

The key to all of this is (in my opinion): We walk each day, each hour, each minute, as worshippers. But we must direct EVERYTHING we do (even outside of church sevices) straight back to the church (pointed back to the temple of God). ALWAYS. And we do it in Spirit and Truth.

In other words; there's nothing wrong with having a dedicated "A-team" as long as its purpose and intent is genuine and it doesn't cause separation and/or pride and arrogance in those involved. As for other musicians in the church/on the team? If we're doing things right, then people shouldn't get offended. But rather they should be challenged to improve themselves based on the example of their peers. If people ARE getting offended, then they might need to examine why THEY are playing on a worship team before they take issue with those of us who have the privelege of being on "A-teams".

[khutch]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

On a related subject, a friend from Ghana recently pointed out the heavy classical influence and interest in advanced harmony that's present in a lot of Afro-American gospel, and contrasted it against the dumbed-down 4-chord simplicity of a lot of CCM.

He got me wondering if the heavy Nashville influence on CCM might be one of the causes...

I don't know the cause, I wasn't paying attention when the new wave swept in. My church still has a choir that sings all kinds of music and I can tell you that if I have five songs to practice for a service and one of them is a choir song, I will spend two thirds of my practice time on the choir song and most of that will be spent getting to the point where I won't totally embarrass myself! Every song we do has tricky bits and every song responds well to all the skill and creativity that you can give it. The choir songs however are long, unrelenting stretches of everything you have....

I've been practicing the Bourree from one of the Bach cello suites for weeks. It doesn't look difficult on paper, I know that back in the day I could have played it well on clarinet after a few days practice. All these weeks later I still would not want anyone to hear me hacking away at it on bass guitar, and my bass is tuned like a cello so it isn't a case of trying to pound a round peg into a square hole. I guess the difference between it and most of the worship music I play is that the latter tends to be quite simple playing punctuated by the occasional flourish. Doesn't have to be but it works well that way and that is where I am right now as a bassist. Bach has something going on all the time. There is no place to rest, no place to hide, you just have to play, play, play.

The public schools in my area seem to have wonderful music programs. I have no idea how they teach music anymore. When I was a schoolboy in the '50s and '60s we had music classes for everyone. We did a lot of singing, we were taught the rudiments of reading music, we sang from printed music, and I remember once being asked to compose a short song! Now those of us in band or choir had a lot more musical instruction but we all had some. I did not do the choir thing until college. I learned to sing harmony as a pre-teen by listening to my dad sing bass in church and following along with him both by ear and by reading along in the hymnal since playing clarinet had taught me to read music very well. It is kinda sad that we don't do that in church any more. I think most kids in my day got a lot of music reading practice in church to reinforce what they learned in schools. These days those of us who want to sing harmonies are left to our own devices and for some reason I tend to sing along with the bass guitar.

Ken

[Bakkster_Man]

Originally Posted by SteveC

In our good old lutheran church, we do all we can to get the stodgy Norwegians and Germans to "get into" the service. We've had the performance/leading worship conversation. We all come from a performance background. When we play, it's hard not to. I don't think we "show off" or over do it. We've kind of decided that if people want to sit and "watch" instead of participate, there's nothing we can do but keep doing what we're doing. Hopefully, they will be inspired to worship, let loose a little and maybe raise their hands once in a while, clap along, something. It is frustrating to be putting all you can into a song and look out at people just siting there, staring back at you.

As a Lutheran as well, I totally understand

I've been beginning working with leading on the vocals (mainly because I'm the only guy willing to sing on a mic ) and one of my mentors from another church simply told me to sing in a way that makes people want to sing along. I can't make them, but I can certainly do my best to encourage them. It isn't easy, but it's worth the effort, IMO.

Originally Posted by Jhengsman

The church elders and currently serving leadership tends to be dominated by Nigerians and on those occaisions when we get going they will start to dance and they were gthe ones who encouraged me to dance while I played.

We have a Nigerian family at our church as well. The first generation immigrant who went home last year had a fantastic heart for worship. After every song he would say "beautiful people!"

[BlueLine1]

Wish I had time to type tonight, however that takes way too long. It's nice to see that there are so many people on here that have their hearts in the right place... May God bless you and yours always....
Alan

[mtb777]

Originally Posted by OHBandit

OK...new to this Praise and Worship thread. Where does the P&W Bassist # in everyone's signature come from?

I got mine on eBay on a last second snag bid snatching it away last second from some supposed " Christian" who said he didn't even have a Fender bass. That was just too much for me to stand. I don't know how some of these people can even call themselves bassists let alone Christians. I know I paid too much for my number but keeping it out of the wrong hands was the least I could do. It wasn't even that godly of a number. Really!

[SoVeryTired]

A productive evening of music last night. I practiced for the weekend on my electric, wrote a song on my acoustic and then worked out a bass line for it on my 5er. I would've played my other bass as well, just for completeness, but it's out on loan to this week's bassist.

[FellowBass]

Hey all, here's a new P&W demo that I had a chance to play on...the songwriter is from our worship team, and all the instrumentalists/vocalists are as well. Check it out, use it at your churches if you like it

http://www.reverbnation.com/juliekeltonic ("Louder")

[5StringFool]

On the subject of the "state of church music", check out this video:

How to Write a Worship Song (In 5 Minutes or Less)

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by Bakkster_Man

As a Lutheran as well, I totally understand

I've been beginning working with leading on the vocals (mainly because I'm the only guy willing to sing on a mic ) and one of my mentors from another church simply told me to sing in a way that makes people want to sing along. I can't make them, but I can certainly do my best to encourage them. It isn't easy, but it's worth the effort, IMO.

We have a Nigerian family at our church as well. The first generation immigrant who went home last year had a fantastic heart for worship. After every song he would say "beautiful people!"

First time caller here, hope I'm not speaking out of turn. If you haven't run across John Bell (Scottish Presbyterian minister and Iona Community member), it might be worth giving him a look. He's got two books on congregational singing out. They're called The Singing Thing and The Singing Thing Two. The first deals with why it's important for everyone to sing and the second covers how to help teach and enciurage congregations to sing. He doesn't come out of the CCW/praise band tradition, so I thought he might be under the radar here. If not, feel free to roll your eyes at the new guy.

K