Saw Jerry Jemmott + Concert Sound Rant

lbwdog · #1 06-15-2010, 07:11 AM

Saturday before last I went to see the Gregg Allman Band at our local Hard Rock Casino. I was looking forward to hearing one of my early influences live. This was the first time I've been to this venue, and upon arrival, I noted the impressive line array sound system which hopefully would provide a great chance to hear everything clearly.

Alas, it was not to be. The mix was typical of virtually every concert I've attended these past few years, which seems to be centered around the kick drum. I could not distinguish a single note he played all night except for a few times when he was playing electric upright. Gregg was in excellent voice but even the vocals were competing against the kick, and were mixed just a tad above it.

Why is this the trend these days? Don't the artists know what's going on? I saw Tower Of Power a couple of years ago at House Of Blues N.O. and same thing there. Kick was mixed like it was for a Metal band, and you couldn't even hear what Rocco was playing. BTW, I know that a good bass sound can be had at H.O.B. NoLa because I've seen Little Feat there several times, and Kenny's bass was very clear, as was Richie's drum kit. Credit goes to my friend Jerry M. who was their road mgr. and FOH mixer for several years.

I know it's difficult in a larger venue to maintain clarity in the low end but virtually every concert I've attended the last few years had the chest pounding kick drum that obliterated the lower frequencies.
I think I'll just quit going, as it's not enjoyable for me anymore.

JasonLamb · #2 06-15-2010, 07:18 AM

that is why I just don't go see live concerts, not because i don't like live music, but because the sound always sucks...

MR PC · #3 06-15-2010, 12:04 PM

To much equipment. Operator ego. Visceral addiction.

megadan · #4 06-15-2010, 01:05 PM

People like getting thumped in the chest. Soundguys like hearing their $20K+ PA system booted up high. Band can't tell what it sounds like up there, or they don't care. Or the venue sounds like &#^(! and nothing's going to change that.

threshar · #5 06-15-2010, 01:24 PM

It is incredibly disappointing to cough up a crazy amount of money to see a show and have the sound be substandard especially when you are paying about $20,000 in ticketmaster taxes

You could complain but I doubt it will do anything.

And as musicians we all know the fact that what we hear is NOT what the audience is hearing by a long shot. You just have to hope it sounds good (and if you are big enough you have a dedicated guy who knows 'your sound' and can hopefully dial it in).

The sound at the BoA pavillion in boston is always awful. HoB is hit or miss (as was its predecessor the avalon). same with the orpheum.

pmcd · #6 06-15-2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbwdog

I saw Tower Of Power a couple of years ago at House Of Blues N.O. and same thing there. Kick was mixed like it was for a Metal band, and you couldn't even hear what Rocco was playing.

I had a similar experience a few months ago. Saw TOP in Boulder, and barely heard a note Rocco played. I assumed it must be a local soundman, but found out later that it was TOP's soundguy!! How in the heck do you get the gig running sound for TOP and screw Rocco in the mix?!?! That should be grounds for losing your job...

Mr.Bassie720 · #7 06-15-2010, 02:19 PM

A lot has to be said for the soundman or woman. As an example, I recently went to a heavy metal show. The opening act was loud and clear. Crisp vocals, nice bass tone, ect. The headliner was loud and muddy. The sound was quite horrible. Same PA. Two completely different sounds.

Matt Dean · #8 06-15-2010, 02:22 PM

Saw Lauren Hill Sunday at the Harmony Festival in Santa Rosa... sound sucked big time. Same thing... kick drum mixed way to up front. On-stage sound apparently sucked too as Lauren complained for about half the show about the side-fills and kept saying "turn'em up," which the sound crew did until until feedback squeals were produced.... at which point my wife and I left.

bassman1987 · #9 06-15-2010, 02:23 PM

Same thing happened to me when I saw the Eagles about a month back. Timothy B. Schmit's bass was completely buried, and the kick was so loud that it was even interfering with Joe Walsh's guitar

I thought guitarists were supposed to be the ones overpowering everyone else

Still a great show though! Why don't bands sing four-part harmonies anymore?

Jim Dep · #10 06-15-2010, 02:25 PM

My guess is that they are trying to win over young audiences that are groomed to listening to rap music with the bass drum booming.
This is right along with the bass drum distorting from their car speakers and rattling windows.

I freaking hate that sound, and if that's the norm these days for live shows, I'm glad I don't go. It's a shame to hear that TOP is caving in to this crap.

EDIT: The Eagles too??!! Is nothing sacred?

jaywa · #11 06-15-2010, 02:26 PM

Ditto for a Brad Paisley show I saw a few years ago. The kick drum was at least two-thirds of the total sound. It was like sitting in front of a freakin cannon for 2 hours. Brad's guitar came next and you could sort of hear his voice and the rest of the band had might as well not even been there. Ridiculous.

OTOH opening for him was Terri Clark and she had the best mix of the night and one of the best live FOH mixes I've heard anywhere in 25 years. Less volume than Paisley but you could hear everyone.

jerry · #12 06-15-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dep

My guess is that they are trying to win over young audiences that are groomed to listening to rap music with the bass drum booming.
This is right along with the bass drum distorting from their car speakers and rattling windows.

Bingo! A lot of young sound men think they are mixing a rave.
On the other hand I saw Allman with Jemmott a few years ago in a small hall with a good mix, they killed! The redid old Allman classic as soul rave-ups and they were outstanding. Allman had a great band at that time that also included the great Neil Larsen.

bassman1987 · #13 06-15-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dep

The Eagles too??!! Is nothing sacred?

+1,000

Despite the sound issues though it was still a killer show. I know this will make me sound like an old curmudgeon (I'm actually 23), but it was one of those times that I realized how crappy most modern "music" is. It floors me, in a where-have-we-gone-wrong kind of way, that a bunch of guys who are pushing sixty and have a long history of hating each others' guts can still play and sing the pants off 98% of the current rock bands out there.

gmahoog · #14 06-15-2010, 09:49 PM

I had the same experience with a Ben Folds concert. Couldn't hardly hear his vocals. You'd think the sound guys could at least do a little with the EQ.

lbwdog · #15 06-16-2010, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry

Bingo! A lot of young sound men think they are mixing a rave.
On the other hand I saw Allman with Jemmott a few years ago in a small hall with a good mix, they killed! The redid old Allman classic as soul rave-ups and they were outstanding. Allman had a great band at that time that also included the great Neil Larsen.

I'd have loved to see that show. Neil Larsen is great. Remember "Full Moon"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassman1987

Same thing happened to me when I saw the Eagles about a month back. Timothy B. Schmit's bass was completely buried, and the kick was so loud that it was even interfering with Joe Walsh's guitar

I thought guitarists were supposed to be the ones overpowering everyone else

Still a great show though! Why don't bands sing four-part harmonies anymore?

Well, the Eagles played here at our coliseum six years ago, and were mixed pretty well considering the type of venue.
First time I saw 'em (original band) was in '75 at The Cotton Bowl, opening for the Rolling Stones. Thankfully that was before the current mixing trend and everything could be heard clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dep

My guess is that they are trying to win over young audiences that are groomed to listening to rap music with the bass drum booming.
This is right along with the bass drum distorting from their car speakers and rattling windows.
I freaking hate that sound, and if that's the norm these days for live shows, I'm glad I don't go.

I think you're right. It's that "I'm here to annoy you attitude"

From 1981 till 1998, I played a regular gig at a great club here.
It was owned by our singer, Jerry Fisher, from Blood Sweat, & Tears, and we had a large following. Went through several soundmen over the years, but sometime in the mid eighties, we had a younger guy who had a really good ear, and did an excellent mixing job. Well, I ruined him by taking him to the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival. The Neville Brothers closed the fest on the big stage, and the kick drum mix literally hurt your chest. After that, he started mixing us that way in this small club. Totally ruined the band's R&B type vibe.
I'm all for a strong feeling rhythm section, but why can't they hear the the way it cancels out much of the good music coming off the stage?

jerry · #16 06-16-2010, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbwdog

I'd have loved to see that show. Neil Larsen is great. Remember "Full Moon"?

Oh yeah, I'm also a big Buzzy Feiten fan.

smgleitch · #17 06-16-2010, 06:36 AM

This is the reason I have stopped going to large venue concerts. Well that and the ticket prices. I honestly cant remember the last time I went to a venue that held more than five or six hundred. There are so many great musicians out there performing in small venues with lower volume shows and therefore great sound. I saw Jackie Greene play a few years ago at The Ark in Ann Arbor, MI and was just blown away. Maybe 300 people and only cost $20 a ticket. Shows like this blow away the big venues, and you can actually hear everyone in the band the way they are meant to be heard. Anyone have a favorite venue for good shows with great sound?

lmfreeman9 · #18 06-16-2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smgleitch

This is the reason I have stopped going to large venue concerts. Well that and the ticket prices. I honestly cant remember the last time I went to a venue that held more than five or six hundred. There are so many great musicians out there performing in small venues with lower volume shows and therefore great sound. I saw Jackie Greene play a few years ago at The Ark in Ann Arbor, MI and was just blown away. Maybe 300 people and only cost $20 a ticket. Shows like this blow away the big venues, and you can actually hear everyone in the band the way they are meant to be heard. Anyone have a favorite venue for good shows with great sound?

SPACE in Evanston, IL New Buddy Guy's and Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago.

The larger the venue the bigger the crap shoot; bad sound, bad seats, long lines, drunks or sometimes just too big. (Like Blues played at a large outdoor venue like Grant Park in Chicago)

It's just not worth it and I've stopped going. The integrity of the music is tantamount at Live shows. That's why I go to Blues and Jazz clubs with less than 200 people instead of Clapton's crossroads. The experience is just better.

It's fascinating how people see a group like the Stones at some gargantuan venue and pay $150+ and say how great they were to justify the hype and the expense.

One Drop · #19 06-16-2010, 09:15 AM

I've been more often disappointed the last few years in spite of PAs getting better and better than I used to be at live shows that had much worse equipment.

No excuse for bad sound these days, too many inept soundmen out there. Really ticks me off.

jaywa · #20 06-16-2010, 11:46 AM

Amid all this, I have to prop the main stage FOH crew working the JazzFest outdoor festival held last year right here in my hometown of lil ol Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I saw three headlining acts (Betty LaVette, Keb Mo and a zydeco band), and the mix for all was just stellar. Crystal clear vocals, kick drum and bass balanced perfectly, keys and guitars mixed appropriately to their roles. Extremely well done sound, and at an outdoor venue, at that.