Verdine White playing behind the beat

[Langueta]

Was playing and listening to When the love has gone, and tought about that....
After listening and paying attention to other e, w and fire tunes I notice that he has a great groove and a tendency to play behind the beat...
Did you also notice that???????

Great bass player imo

[Langueta]

He plays behind the beat in the most soulful tunes, on the disco ones he is more on the beat

[Langueta]

Other bassists and songs where the bassist tends to play behind the beat????
Please don´t say Aston Barret cause it is an obious example

[Dbassmon]

I would not say behind the beat... more accurately, on the back half of the beat. To me, that is what makes a great big fat funky groove.

Listen to Chuck Rainey on Steele Dan's Babylon Sisters or Josie (or most any thing else he recorded for that matter). Listen to Little Feat Live Album Waiting for Columbus "Time loves a hero", "Dixie Chicken" or "Fat Man in the Bath Tube". Big time grooves from the bass and drums! Relaxed, Lazy and Fat.

The ability to play with that nuance is what makes those grooves sound so delicious. Verdine White is no slouch either.

Lanqueta - good for you that hear that subtlety. If you practice that and incorporate in your own playing, you will be on your way to being a Groove Master too. Fat Groove = working bass player!

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

I would not say behind the beat... more accurately, on the back half of the beat. To me, that is what makes a great big fat funky groove.

Listen to Chuck Rainey on Steele Dan's Babylon Sisters or Josie (or most any thing else he recorded for that matter). Listen to Little Feat Live Album Waiting for Columbus "Time loves a hero", "Dixie Chicken" or "Fat Man in the Bath Tube". Big time grooves from the bass and drums! Relaxed, Lazy and Fat.

The ability to play with that nuance is what makes those grooves sound so delicious. Verdine White is no slouch either.

Lanqueta - good for you that hear that subtlety. If you practice that and incorporate in your own playing, you will be on your way to being a Groove Master too. Fat Groove = working bass player!

What do you mean with the back half of the beat my friend???

Thank you!!!

pd: Being a groove master would be so exiting

[Dbassmon]

Listen to the recordings I suggest. You will notice that no notes are late (behind the beat) but rather occur with extreme restraint in a lazy feel. To the listener it sounds "Big/wide/powerful". No nervous energy, but tons of powerful energy, lots of space. Fills never rush the down beat. When the down beat comes it's killing! I am speaking about the most subtle of difference but the ability to play like this is what sets the men apart from the boys. IMO

Neville Brothers from New Orleans is another band with a very lazy groove. Kev Mo is another. What's going on by Marvin Gaye...another, listen to Jamersons interpretation of time. wow, fat!

[bassbrad]

What do you mean with the back half of the beat my friend???

It is possible to play around the "center" of a beat that are all ways to influence feel of a groove by changing the tension of the beat. There is dead center on the beat. Kicking and Pushing are on the front edge of the beat, while Pulling and Dragging are on the back edge of the beat. These feels do not change the tempo but make it feel like it might be accelerating or slowing down that is where the tension comes in.
When it comes to bass:
Rock, Pop and most Latin music is usually dead center.
R&B (especially ballads) tends to pull back on the beat a bit.
Punk, Heavy Metal and other agressive styles get much of their feel from pushing the beat.
Then there are Reggae and the "Deep South" styles of bass playing that get so exagerated you (and the whole band) just have to know exactly where the beat is or the groove is doomed.
There is no way to anaylize or quantize these feels you just have to listen and feel it. The best lessons for examples of these stylistic effects are any Meters CD; George Porter Jr. is a master of knowing when, where and how hard to push or pull the beat. Other exagerated examples of pulling or pushing the beat would be horn sections, listen to the EWF or James Brown band horn parts for all sorts of examples.
Playing with different feels is an important way for a bass player to infliuence the groove, to make it smooth,bounce, drive or be funky. But the danger here is if the other musicians especially the drummer don't understand what you are doing, they may accuse you of rushing or dragging the tempo.

[pbass2]

If you wanna hear an (at times) extreme example of behind-the-beat bass playing, check out Pino on D'Angelo's "Voodoo" album. Funky as all get-out too.

[Marcus Willett]

Originally Posted by pbass2

If you wanna hear an (at times) extreme example of behind-the-beat bass playing, check out Pino on D'Angelo's "Voodoo" album.

Agreed. On some of those tracks he's so far behind it's disturbing. I remember reading something from him where talked about that CD and said he almost had to not listen to the rhythm tracks at all when tracking to put the notes where D wanted them. Wild stuff.

Originally Posted by Langueta

Please don´t say Aston Barret cause it is an obious example

You might think so, but producer (and bassist) Bill Laswell offered this in EQ; January 1998 (doing a remix of Bob Marley material called "Dreams of Freedom"):

"When you blow up a line, you kind of make it bigger, and it does have a tendency to change where it sits in a rhythm or in time....I was especially concerned about that because it will change the way that [Marley's bassist Aston "Family Man" Barrett] sits in the band. It's hard to imagine, but the way he played was very much on top of the beat, and you don't really hear that in the songs....Family Man plays very much on top because I think he listened to the singing....You don't hear that in the songs the way they're mixed, but when you isolate it and hear it with the drums you notice that he was playing way on top of the beat." [emphasis mine]

Again, wild stuff.

[Oric]

Laying back on the beat can do a lot for the groove. However, in my high school jazz band, our director (who was very experienced with jazz performance) told the drummer to be exactly on the beat, me to be a little ahead, and the horns to be behind a little.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

I would not say behind the beat... more accurately, on the back half of the beat.

The back half of the beat IS behind the beat.

[pbass2]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Agreed. On some of those tracks he's so far behind it's disturbing. I remember reading something from him where talked about that CD and said he almost had to not listen to the rhythm tracks at all when tracking to put the notes where D wanted them. Wild stuff.

You might think so, but producer (and bassist) Bill Laswell offered this in EQ; January 1998 (doing a remix of Bob Marley material called "Dreams of Freedom"):

"When you blow up a line, you kind of make it bigger, and it does have a tendency to change where it sits in a rhythm or in time....I was especially concerned about that because it will change the way that [Marley's bassist Aston "Family Man" Barrett] sits in the band. It's hard to imagine, but the way he played was very much on top of the beat, and you don't really hear that in the songs....Family Man plays very much on top because I think he listened to the singing....You don't hear that in the songs the way they're mixed, but when you isolate it and hear it with the drums you notice that he was playing way on top of the beat." [emphasis mine]

Again, wild stuff.

Yeah, the end result on the Voodoo album is very much like in hip hop where a couple samples don't exactly lock in "correctly", but with repetition a totally sick groove is developed that is just soooo greasy. Man, I love it.

Very interesting the stuff about Family Man, but yeah, you wouldn't think it right off the bat---but I can definitely hear(in my head right now at least) how he was actually almost "pushing" sometimes, especially with his really melodic lines. Cool.

Funny, I was explaining all this kinda stuff to a singer at a session the other day, and she was looking at me like I was a nut for being so obsessed with not being exactly "on-time"! But once you point it out to people, it usually perks up their ears!

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The back half of the beat IS behind the beat.

Please can you explain me this thing better????
I am trying to analize this conceps and I am from Argentina so it is difficult for me to find the difference....It is like the same for me

thanks

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by bassbrad

What do you mean with the back half of the beat my friend???

It is possible to play around the "center" of a beat that are all ways to influence feel of a groove by changing the tension of the beat. There is dead center on the beat. Kicking and Pushing are on the front edge of the beat, while Pulling and Dragging are on the back edge of the beat. These feels do not change the tempo but make it feel like it might be accelerating or slowing down that is where the tension comes in.
When it comes to bass:
Rock, Pop and most Latin music is usually dead center.
R&B (especially ballads) tends to pull back on the beat a bit.
Punk, Heavy Metal and other agressive styles get much of their feel from pushing the beat.
Then there are Reggae and the "Deep South" styles of bass playing that get so exagerated you (and the whole band) just have to know exactly where the beat is or the groove is doomed.
There is no way to anaylize or quantize these feels you just have to listen and feel it. The best lessons for examples of these stylistic effects are any Meters CD; George Porter Jr. is a master of knowing when, where and how hard to push or pull the beat. Other exagerated examples of pulling or pushing the beat would be horn sections, listen to the EWF or James Brown band horn parts for all sorts of examples.
Playing with different feels is an important way for a bass player to infliuence the groove, to make it smooth,bounce, drive or be funky. But the danger here is if the other musicians especially the drummer don't understand what you are doing, they may accuse you of rushing or dragging the tempo.

Very good examples here, thank you...but difficult for me to understand...cause I speak in spanish, sory

[Langueta]

If you play with a lazy feel you are playing behind the beat..How you can play at the center of the beat and change the tension of the beat???????
So where is the difference of playing at back half of the beat and behind the beat???

[Marcus Willett]

Langueta, these are difficult and subtle aspects of music and musicianship regardless of what words you use to describe it; so don't feel bad.

The "beat" is not an instantaneous point in time. It has a build up, it has a duration. Visualize it as a semi-circle cross ways on a line (pic)

There's the peak of the crest of the beat. That's the center. More towards the front (early part of the build up) or back (after the peak) give you the "ahead" or "behind".

The key to understand is that the beat is not an instantaneous point; there's some give and take and that's what makes music have feel and groove.

[matthewbrown]

On a lot of tunes, the "fatness" of the beat comes from the interaction of the bass and the snare backbeat, IMHO. If the bass is playing on top of the beat and the snare is right on it, it will make the beat feel fat, but with a "nervous" feel -- that bebop thing. With the snare right on and the bass behind, the beat still sounds fat, but in a more relaxed way. Definitely something to listen for on any good recording or live rhythm section. And certainly a great thing to cop when playing along with recordings. I have a long way to go in terms of achieving what I'm after in this regard, but I can certainly hear it!

[Dbassmon]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The back half of the beat IS behind the beat.

Look a little closer. Listen. You will see!

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Langueta, these are difficult and subtle aspects of music and musicianship regardless of what words you use to describe it; so don't feel bad.

The "beat" is not an instantaneous point in time. It has a build up, it has a duration. Visualize it as a semi-circle cross ways on a line (pic)

There's the peak of the crest of the beat. That's the center. More towards the front (early part of the build up) or back (after the peak) give you the "ahead" or "behind".

The key to understand is that the beat is not an instantaneous point; there's some give and take and that's what makes music have feel and groove.

GREATT MEN!!!!!!!I´VE GET IT

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Look a little closer. Listen. You will see!

You are saying that behind the beat is after the beat and back half the beat in the beat but in the last part of it???