In what way are the virtuoso bassists any different from the guitar shredders.. ?

[Suckbird]

We all know that guitar shredding is the most annoying thing in the world, right?
malmsteen, angelo etc.. are soulless wankers. :

But how comes all these solo bassists who excess the most ridiculous techniques such as double handed tapping, sweeping, double thumping and use them as yet another way to jerk off on their instrument saying they're expressing themself get praised to the sky on these forums?

What's the difference between victor wooten double-thumping a billions of notes and malmsteen doing his shred solo?

To be honest, in my opinion malmsteen atleast wrote like 1 or 2 good songs, and while i'm not a fan of technical playing on any instrument i would much rather listen to him than victor wooten, bill dickens etc...

I would also like to know about jazz and fusion music, while there's some kickass stuff out there alot of it seems to be yet another excuse to just show of your technical ability, just like technical deathmetal or progressive metal..

Here's a ridiculous and overdriven example of what i'm trying to say..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bulBD...ickens#comment

[Mark Wilson]

Bass: Good
Guitar: Bad

[Chad.mundt]

Some of the guys you mention ARE musical. I don't like the bassist from Dreamtheater (sorry guys, I'm a jazzer), but I do like Vic Wooten, not because of his techniques, but because of his groove and his solo arrangements (ie. Norwegian Wood). And I love Eddie Van Halen because he is musical. And, sometimes, Steve Vai is musical. To me, there isn't a difference.

[Benjamin Strange]

Virtuosos are a good reference for what can be played, and what shouldn't be played.

[moogboy]

Guitar=boring guys who where tight pants and have HUGE egos.
Bass=guys who rock out and have fun.

[Bubba Love]

Originally Posted by Suckbird

What's the difference between victor wooten double-thumping a billions of notes and malmsteen doing his shred solo?

I know this is a ridiculous debate to have, but....

I actually can't find any of this VW stuff everyone harps on about. Granted there was a lot of technical stuff on Show of Hands, but there were also some proper tunes, like Cherokee and What Did He Say? VW is intensly musical, his latest CD (Soul Circus) is packed full of SONGS, with the bass playing providing more of a backdrop (a really pretty one mind you) than a justification for the tracks.

His stuff with the Flecktones isn't even in the same category, it's so understated most of the time. I think since the late ninties he has made an effort to move away from the use of thumping as a soloing tool, although he still deploys it in useful ways. People need to learn to make a distinction between just playing fast and playing fast with feeling. In any case he's still got more soul than almost anyone out there, the guy's one of the greats.

[xlows]

Originally Posted by Bubba Love

Granted there was a lot of technical stuff on Show of Hands,

Hey, I love Rush!! Wait...nevermind.

Though, what about that? Players like Geddy and Entwistle, I mean. They're virtuosos if ever there were any, but they play(ed) quite tastefully in my opinion. Entwistle may have done some of the speedy tapping and such, but it fit well, not just garbled video game-like noise.

[wdinc01]

Because alot of guitar virtuosos are complete jerk offs. Malmsteen is one, although I think Zakk Wylde is a bigger one, and being in a metal kind of sound gives them a metal kind of personality. That sounds kind of lame, but it's true.

And besides that, bass is just a different beast. It's a different sound. It's not like it's really heavily distorted and squeeling alot. Although I have seen some guitar virtuosos who have a nice acoustic sound, but the ones you listed tend to have a lot of distortion.

And plus, bassists are awesome.

[Atomik Rooster]

Originally Posted by Suckbird

. . .But how comes all these solo bassists who excess the most ridiculous techniques such as double handed tapping, sweeping, double thumping and use them as yet another way to jerk off on their instrument saying they're expressing themself get praised to the sky on these forums?. . .

Just about anyone who plays in a band knows there's a line you walk between satisfying yourself personally and working with what the songs require. Jam bands are designed to let each player show off his skill. Jazz caters to the stream of consciousness type of playing, pop music panders to the masses, etc.
Like some have already mentioned, a skillful player can show you the possibilities and be admired for mastering the instrument. Praise is due and rightly so. That doesn't mean an entire CD of it is a good thing. A little technique goes a long way, but a true musician knows what to play, when to show off and when not to. More often than not, the rule is - Don't play <insert your instrument here>, play the song.

[Eric Perry]

A shredder can be a virtuoso... But can also be a wanker-tool dweeb.

A virtuoso is not necessarily a shred-master.

Think of a virtuoso as an intricate dinner dish. Many ingredients go into said dish. "shred" may be one of those ingredients. An intricate dinner can be had without this ingredient, but possession of said ingredient does NOT make the intricate dinner... (and can many times ruin it!!!)

[marcray]

it's not different, all of that stuff is pure wank... no expression in any of it, not to say someone won't come along and find a way to make a song out of it that actually shows some emotion, and not just orgasm face expressions...

[Sneckumhaw]

Originally Posted by Suckbird

Here's a ridiculous and overdriven example of what i'm trying to say..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bulBD...ickens#comment

Yuck. I'm gonna throw up.

[chris_nairn]

Originally Posted by Eric618

A shredder can be a virtuoso... But can also be a wanker-tool dweeb.

A virtuoso is not necessarily a shred-master.

Think of a virtuoso as an intricate dinner dish. Many ingredients go into said dish. "shred" may be one of those ingredients. An intricate dinner can be had without this ingredient, but possession of said ingredient does NOT make the intricate dinner... (and can many times ruin it!!!)

+1 I was going to make a similar comment. To me, Paul McCartney is a virtuoso and rarely plays fast and certainly doesn't shred. Early Sting w/ Police is in the same category for me. They both wrote great lines. Who cares if it simple or not? Walking On The Moon is one fantastic bass line but is easy to play and is repetitive. It's all about craftmanship for my taste. I also happen to think Wooten is exceptional. I saw him live about 7 or 8 years ago with Fleck and really enjoyed listening/ watching.

Shredding is fine if it is musical. Sometimes, I enjoy it for the sake of the technique and no more. And for that matter, it is all in the ear of the beholder. I may hear Sting playing walking on the moon and think it's terrific while somebody else simply doesn't dig it. That's fine.

[santucci218]

Originally Posted by Chad.mundt

Some of the guys you mention ARE musical. I don't like the bassist from Dreamtheater (sorry guys, I'm a jazzer), but I do like Vic Wooten, not because of his techniques, but because of his groove and his solo arrangements (ie. Norwegian Wood). And I love Eddie Van Halen because he is musical. And, sometimes, Steve Vai is musical. To me, there isn't a difference.

your aware that John Myung of dream theater can play any style there is amazingly? he is honestly an underrated player, and from what i hear, a hell of a guy!

[Disc]

Yeah its the same.

BUT

Shredding is meant to dominate a mix with noise and make you the sole focus at the time.

Double thumping and the like can be used that way, but can also be used for the groove and serve a purpose in a song. And then your doing solo work I dont see what wrong with taking the spotlight =P.

[Zappstorius]

Pure wankery is pure wankery, no matter what instrument it's being played on. Most of it is not musical. Yeah, it's a great showcase for their chops (which are incredible by the way), but it has absolutley no groove whatsoever. It's about playing a thousand notes a minute, and showing off. Not exactly my cup of tea.

[kynoch]

Both are as BORING as HELL!!!!

I have no time for either and I NEVER listen to any of it without being BORED to DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kynoch]

Here's a ridiculous and overdriven example of what i'm trying to say..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bulBD...ickens#comment

Now Whats REALLY bad about this is the NASTY NASTY Synths in the Background.....whoever thought that was a Good Idea.....Nasty.

[Grueber]

Originally Posted by Suckbird

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bulBD...ickens#comment

heck yeah, The Buddah can play!


fast, technical, super slap stuff isn't for everybody though. When i first started playing bass i loved this stuff. Then I started looking at internet forums and every other post was like...

"Man, Wooten plays too fast and has no groove"
"Fast technical stuff is pointless and unmusical"

I almost got tricked into believing this myself, but then I realized that I still liked all the fast solo bass and shred guitar(especially neo-classical). Take a song like "A Show of Hands", I once heard someone say it was unmusical and had no melody. The only conclusion I could come to was that the person was so wrapped up in thinking, "oh no, here's goes wooten with his super fast slap and tapping" that he couldn't just sit back and listen to the beautiful music that was being played. As for Malmsteen, I've always loved his playing. That guy has written some amazing music. People who are skeptical of him need to check out his "Concerto for Electric Guitar".
btw, Why is Malmsteen's playing Soulless? Maybe he should close his eyes while he bends notes and gently sways back and forth.

virtuoso stuff isn't for everybody, but it is for me.

But how comes all these solo bassists who excess the most ridiculous techniques such as double handed tapping, sweeping, double thumping and use them as yet another way to jerk off on their instrument saying they're expressing themself get praised to the sky on these forums?

dude, it's just another way of making the string vibrate.

[OrangeSun]

I think the entire debate here is whether or not the technique is what is being displayed or the song (melody, composition, the notes themselves) is what is being displayed.

That bill dickens video you posted, I would say the entire point of it is to show the furthest possible extention of bass slap techniques. Clearly, hes not very interested in making entertaining music, hence the cheesy synth backup music. Its all about, hey look at what I can do. Hes not really playing bass as the instrument is traditionally approached, and spends about 80% of the "song" if you can call it that up in the high register of the instrument.

I would say that victor wooten is (most of the time) a guy who can take these advanced techniques and make them more musical, so while your amazed at his ability your also able to hear a melody and composition to what hes doing. That being said, I'm a much bigger fan of his work with bands, especially Bela Fleck, then his solo stuff. Solo bass is what it is, you either love it or hate it, and its certainly not going to start selling thousands of records anytime soon.

I would say that Victor Wooten is in a completely different category then Dickens. He writes much more musically, but he does also have his moments of making the bass just sound like really fast clicking.

I would say that it all depends on what your trying to get out of it. You don't watch bill dickens to be impressed by the music, you watch it to be blown away by the technique. Which is undeniably pretty impressive for what it is. If I had to compare Victor Wooten to a guitar player, I'd say he's more akin to John McLaughlin. That analogy would fit Bill Dickens to Ywngie Malmsteen. I'm sure someone will flame the hell out of me for that, but I think it's a lot more accurate.