Whats the deal with the sound people???

shawshank72 · #1 07-01-2009, 11:33 AM

I am a bass player who practices, invests money in good gear, puts up with egos and drama to do what i love. Then when the time comes to play a show, the soundperson never puts you in the mix. Im sick of it!!! Have you watched bands play like i do and the only way you would know there is a bass in the band is if you look directly at them. Im tired of being pushed off to the side like i dont exist. What??? are soundpeople all just former guitarists who believe that its the only instrument in the band??? Getting to the point where i dont even want to bother playing shows anymore.
Just disgusting

metallicafan18 · #2 07-01-2009, 11:37 AM

I guess it depends what soundman you have. My drumemrs dad does our sound. He played guitar, bass, drums, and steel guitar. He does a hell of a job with sounds. Bass is always very loud.

I'd say hire your own soundman that you know is good and let him do the job if you want it done right.

MNAirHead · #3 07-01-2009, 11:44 AM

Instead of fighting with him.. hire someone to take your place with your gear and work with him.

You'd be amazed there's a chance that you are not hearing the same stuff.

I commonly do not exist on stage volume and boom at FOH.

Get all signals to the board and then do a recording.

jaywa · #4 07-01-2009, 11:44 AM

The biggest problem is many FOH engineers' firm belief that the kick drum has to dominate the entire bottom half of the frequency spectrum in the mix. The 2nd biggest problem is guitarists dialing up too much low end on their amps and/or the FOH engineer putting it in at the board. By the time you have that much low-end already occupied, there's no room left for bass guitar. By and large most live mixes I hear, the kick drum could come down by 20% and the bass go up by 20% and then it would be about right.

And BTW if a sound tech ever tries to tell you "bass is hard to mix", they're full of it. The good ones know how to get it done. They know how to get the right balance between kick drum and bass and how to protect that sonic space against low end guitar and keyboards.

A guy was telling me about a video he saw one time where the guy who mixed the ABBA records showed his methods. He said he always started with the vocals, and the very next thing to get added was bass (almost as loud as the vocals), and then the kick drum was brought in below that, and the rest of the instruments got what was left over. George Martin with the Beatles, also, would mix the bass 2 dB louder than anything else on the tape. In too many live situations today those principles have gotten exactly reversed.

D.A.R.K. · #5 07-01-2009, 11:48 AM

not all sound engineers are like that.
hire one that gets it... worth the investment, imho.
i've been mixing for many years, and i find bass is usually the most difficult instrument to amplify on a large scale, as far as getting a nice even response. it has extremely powerful transients... perhaps one of the reasons engineers often tend to try to clamp down on it with compression. it can be done, though.
also, in most ensemble scenarios the bass is meant as a support role, so it gets attention last.... vocals first. not that it's right, it's just the way it is. i get guff for putting the bass evenly in a mix sometimes....
("yes sir, the bass is as loud as the guitar, so yes, your eyes might blur a bit on those low notes")
hell, the show i saw on the smv tour even sounded like ass for the most part...
go figure.
i like the abba reference...
definitely was a time when the mix was driven by bass, not kick.
maybe trends will change, and we will find our way back.
i'd prefer it...

jaywa · #6 07-01-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

also, in most ensemble scenarios the bass is meant as a support role, so it gets attention last.... vocals first.

True, however I would argue the kick drum is also in a supporting role. To mix the bass as a support instrument and the kick drum as a lead instrument is just wack.

electracoyote · #7 07-01-2009, 11:52 AM

You need to talk with your bandmates about that, because it is deteriorating the overall sound of your band and everyone's time and effort. When I am listening to a band, and the bass is nice and full in the mix, it always sounds better. Your bass should be hugging the kick drum; if you're not, your band is not sounding as good as it should. This in no way interferes with the mixing of the vocals and guitars; they are in a different frequency spectrum. And remember: The soundman, despite his years of experience, his dedication, and his ego, works for the band. If you are in an unfortunate upside-down relationship with your sound people, that needs to be corrected.

jaywa · #8 07-01-2009, 11:53 AM

BTW, watch for this thread to be moving over to "Live Sound" soon, I would guess.

D.A.R.K. · #9 07-01-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

True, however I would argue the kick drum is also in a supporting role. To mix the bass as a support instrument and the kick drum as a lead instrument is just wack.

absolutely, i agree 100%.
i do not like "metal" sounding kick drum, thankfully neither do any of the folks i work for.

Michael Henson · #10 07-01-2009, 12:06 PM

I play in church and the sound guy is horrible. There's nothing more frustrated than taking 30 minutes of practice time dialing everything in so it sounds and watching from the stage as he switches everything back to it prearranged "mark." He even has little stickers that he put on there to help him remember....So much for listening to the mix and adjusting levels as needed I guess, let's just all put stickers on our stuff and never deviate...brilliant!!!!!!!!

jaywa · #11 07-01-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Henson

I play in church and the sound guy is horrible. There's nothing more frustrated than taking 30 minutes of practice time dialing everything in so it sounds and watching from the stage as he switches everything back to it prearranged "mark." He even has little stickers that he put on there to help him remember....So much for listening to the mix and adjusting levels as needed I guess, let's just all put stickers on our stuff and never deviate...brilliant!!!!!!!!

Yep. And the new wave of "digital/programmable" whatever sound boards doesn't help that at all either. It just means the "stickers" are digital now instead of tape on a board. Punch up the preset and take the rest of the morning off

Bardley · #12 07-01-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electracoyote

And remember: The soundman, despite his years of experience, his dedication, and his ego, works for the band. If you are in an unfortunate upside-down relationship with your sound people, that needs to be corrected.

Actually, in many cases the sound tech works for the Venue or the promoter, not the band. Not to say that they should not serve the band in a professional manner, but you always answer to the one that signs the checks.

Bardley · #13 07-01-2009, 01:39 PM

I am a sound tech by trade and I can say that when I am mixing FOH, I focus on Kick first, Bass second, Guitars, and then set the vocals up front in the space you have intentionally left for them. The kick and bass have to mesh. If not, it sounds like garbage. Vocals are the most important part as far as I'm concerned. If you can't understand the singer, the message is not being conveyed, IMO.

I must say, IME, a sure way to get turned down in a mix is to have ungodly stage volume, especially in smaller venues. You cannot properly mix when you have massive noise from the stage.

IMO, you should just hire your own sound tech. Just like there are thousands of guitards and bass players out there wanking around with horrible tone, there are many sound techs that understand the equipment, but cannot mix for crap.

electracoyote · #14 07-01-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bardley

Actually, in many cases the sound tech works for the Venue or the promoter, not the band. Not to say that they should not serve the band in a professional manner, but you always answer to the one that signs the checks.

For that matter, the band also works for the promoter or venue owner. But I think everyone understands the point I was trying to make about the band/soundperson relationship.

electracoyote · #15 07-01-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bardley

I must say, IME, a sure way to get turned down in a mix is to have ungodly stage volume, especially in smaller venues. You cannot properly mix when you have massive noise from the stage.

Now there's a good point from a soundperson who obviously has a clue. And if you're one of those musicians cluttering up the room with ridiculous stage volume levels, and a sound person asks you to turn down so he/she can hear the FOH and create a better mix, I hope you have the sense to follow that good advice.

jaywa · #16 07-01-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Now there's a good point from a soundperson who obviously has a clue. And if you're one of those musicians cluttering up the room with ridiculous stage volume levels, and a sound person asks you to turn down so he/she can hear the FOH and create a better mix, I hope you have the sense to follow that good advice.

It may not even be a stage volume issue... especially for bass, it may be EQ more than anything. I literally run about half the low-end on stage now as I did just a couple of years ago (thanks to the advice of many wise souls here on TB), and it has cleaned up our FOH sound enormously. Yes the end result is that my bass is so high-endy on stage that it sets my teeth on edge... but knowing it's coming out well in the house I've learned to deal with it.

jamesie · #17 07-01-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bardley

I am a sound tech by trade and I can say that when I am mixing FOH, I focus on Kick first, Bass second, Guitars, and then set the vocals up front in the space you have intentionally left for them. The kick and bass have to mesh. If not, it sounds like garbage. Vocals are the most important part as far as I'm concerned. If you can't understand the singer, the message is not being conveyed, IMO.

I must say, IME, a sure way to get turned down in a mix is to have ungodly stage volume, especially in smaller venues. You cannot properly mix when you have massive noise from the stage.

IMO, you should just hire your own sound tech. Just like there are thousands of guitards and bass players out there wanking around with horrible tone, there are many sound techs that understand the equipment, but cannot mix for crap.

yes, i agree - the most important thing is the stagevolume and very bad is too much bass and crying highs on stage - nowadays i think the key are distorted guitars which are sounding very deep and the bass has to be very loud to cut through and then the compact band sound is gone - if the monitors are not good enough the vocals are sometimes shrill and distorted and at this point i`m running out and i`m getting very, very angry - on the other hand i`m pretty picky in the matter of the whole band sound because when you can`t hear some instruments right, why playing it?

Bardley · #18 07-01-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Now there's a good point from a soundperson who obviously has a clue. And if you're one of those musicians cluttering up the room with ridiculous stage volume levels, and a sound person asks you to turn down so he/she can hear the FOH and create a better mix, I hope you have the sense to follow that good advice.

Thank you, and I do understand the the point you were making about the sound man.
I've never asked anyone to turn down that was not seriously affecting the FOH mix. It's usually guitarists, but there is the occasional bass offender. It is always for the benefit of the mix. We are all on the same team and trying to make a great show for the crowd. The better it sounds, the more people enjoy themselves. (and the more gigs you get)

Bardley · #19 07-01-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

It may not even be a stage volume issue... especially for bass, it may be EQ more than anything. I literally run about half the low-end on stage now as I did just a couple of years ago (thanks to the advice of many wise souls here on TB), and it has cleaned up our FOH sound enormously. Yes the end result is that my bass is so high-endy on stage that it sets my teeth on edge... but knowing it's coming out well in the house I've learned to deal with it.

This is why I like running a "Pre" signal to FOH and set my amp for my stage sound. This can be hard if you are using your amp for "your sound", though.

electracoyote · #20 07-01-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

It may not even be a stage volume issue... especially for bass, it may be EQ more than anything. I literally run about half the low-end on stage now as I did just a couple of years ago (thanks to the advice of many wise souls here on TB), and it has cleaned up our FOH sound enormously. Yes the end result is that my bass is so high-endy on stage that it sets my teeth on edge... but knowing it's coming out well in the house I've learned to deal with it.

Absolutely, well put. If you're running through FOH, your stage amp is merely a glorified monitor. You can ask the soundperson to put you through the floor monitor if it helps. I've also been in situations with side monitors, very nice. Anything but pushing it out front and cluttering the FOH.