What's so great about the old school funk sound?

[LiF]

I never really got this. It sounds dull and uninteresting to me. Kinda muddy and indistinct on most of the recordings out of the 60s and 70s.

Don't get me wrong, the music is fantastic and those guys(Jamerson, Babbit et al) could really play, I just don't get the tone.

What is the appeal of that tone for the people who like it?

BTW I been playing bass for 25 years, play mainly funk and soul now, so I'm not some greenhorn teenager in a death metal band.

[ggoat!!!]

Because it's thick, full, slightly distorted, and you can HEAR it...no tweeters, no thin "acoustic guitar" sounding high notes, no smiley face eq. Real grit, thickness, tons of mids, and GROOVE.

REAL "old school funk sound" is the complete opposite of most "modern" sounds today...you know, those type of bass players who can PLAY amazingly but once the band starts, they DISAPPEAR.

And what's the point of that???

[dezspet]

Maybe you don't dig the overall sound quality of those recordings, but when you listen to the Jamersons or Paul Jacksons (oh yeah baby), you should realize that bass had never been that dominant in the mix before, besides the fact that it has become much more melodic and groovy with these folks as well.
The only band who reminds me of that period - in terms of bass being the centre of the groove and music, and the sound quality of the bass is phenomenal - is Jamiroquai with Stu Zender.

[rcarraher]

Originally Posted by LiF

I never really got this. It sounds dull and uninteresting to me. Kinda muddy and indistinct on most of the recordings out of the 60s and 70s.

Don't get me wrong, the music is fantastic and those guys(Jamerson, Babbit et al) could really play, I just don't get the tone.

What is the appeal of that tone for the people who like it?

BTW I been playing bass for 25 years, play mainly funk and soul now, so I'm not some greenhorn teenager in a death metal band.

For the times, the sound quality was really amazing, especialy considering the equipment they used, also, something you may have missed especialy with the 60's, alot of that stuff was recorded in mono, so the HIFI sound was really at it's best. By todays standards, digital mastering techniques, over dubbing, and all the other industrial magic its pretty rudimentary, but at the time it was really amazing. And then, of course, there were the artists themselves....

[benc]

That's cool, bro. You like what you like. Bob Babbitt and Jamerson both played P-basses with flatwounds. They both used some sort of foam under the strings near the bridge to kill the overtones and to shorten the sustain (I don't think the P-bass had the mute strip under the bridge cover like the Jazz bass did). They were obviously going for a thumpy, upright bass sound.

Who are your favorite Funk/Soul players?

[LiF]

Originally Posted by benc

Who are your favorite Funk/Soul players?

Ha ha ha! You won't believe this, but the guys with that sound.

Jamerson, Babbit, Chuck Rainey, Rocco, Nate Philipson. Then of course Bernard Edwards.

[LiF]

Originally Posted by dezspet

The only band who reminds me of that period - in terms of bass being the centre of the groove and music, and the sound quality of the bass is phenomenal - is Jamiroquai with Stu Zender.

Read my post again, those guys were phenomenal players.

Modern bands with bass centre of groove/music? Brand New Heavies, Incognito, Erykah Badu live, Angie Stone band, there are loads.

[Mr_Sore_Fingerz]

Originally Posted by ggoat!!!

Because it's thick, full, slightly distorted, and you can HEAR it...no tweeters, no thin "acoustic guitar" sounding high notes, no smiley face eq. Real grit, thickness, tons of mids, and GROOVE.

REAL "old school funk sound" is the complete opposite of most "modern" sounds today...you know, those type of bass players who can PLAY amazingly but once the band starts, they DISAPPEAR.

And what's the point of that???

+1

I'm not one of those guys who feels like my instrument needs to be in the forefront 24/7, but I do believe that we as bassists take the high road way too often in an attempt to give the other instruments more presence. Plus the old school funk sound is classic, most people can hear it and the sound affects the feel or tone of the whole song...it's really awesome when your instrument can have that kind of influence

[Caca de Kick]

Yup, it's because those tones had presence. They pushed the instrument with that old dinosour recording equipment, and you were able to hear it on radios and stereos of the time. Listening on modern stereos nowadays it comes through very sweet.

[woolysock]

"I just don't get the tone. What is the appeal of that tone for the people who like it?"

If you hear Jamerson soloed his tone is literally funky. Kinda stinky, raw and nasty.

These days better gear gives a smoother version of that sound. It's thick and supportive. For example check out Pino Palladino with D'Angelo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4XI6LXCsH8

What's not to like ;-)

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by LiF

I never really got this. It sounds dull and uninteresting to me. Kinda muddy and indistinct on most of the recordings out of the 60s and 70s.

Don't get me wrong, the music is fantastic and those guys(Jamerson, Babbit et al) could really play, I just don't get the tone.

What is the appeal of that tone for the people who like it?

BTW I been playing bass for 25 years, play mainly funk and soul now, so I'm not some greenhorn teenager in a death metal band.

The appeal is that you're listening to the contemporary sound of bass. It's easy to lose sight of the fact when you've heard what came after.

You're listening to history. It helps to listen in context. At the time, that tone was NEW. Just like Stanley Clarke's tone was new in the early 70's or Chris Squire, etc. You couldn't have the sound of roundwounds before they were in use.


I am curious though... what are examples of the muddy and indistinct tone you heard? I heard a lot of very well defined bass from that era, in fact the vast majority of it. And when you consider that back then a lot of it was heard on a tiny whizzer cone speaker in the dashboard of an automobile or a kitchen table radio vs. the equipment available today...

[Clark Dark]

Originally Posted by LiF

I never really got this. It sounds dull and uninteresting to me. Kinda muddy and indistinct on most of the recordings out of the 60s and 70s.

Don't get me wrong, the music is fantastic and those guys(Jamerson, Babbit et al) could really play, I just don't get the tone.

What is the appeal of that tone for the people who like it?

BTW I been playing bass for 25 years, play mainly funk and soul now, so I'm not some greenhorn teenager in a death metal band.

since your Original Post referenced "old school"
you never "got" Bernadette ? Darling Dear ? How long has the evening train been gone ? Signed Sealed and Delivered ? What's going On ? Even Jamersons upright work on older Stevie Wonder hits like "I don't know why I love you", "Shoo be doo be do da day" and other #1 hits for other Motown Tamla artists before his P Bass days ??? You never "felt" Babbitt ???
you never "got" any of James Browns funk ? whether with Bootsy, before Bootsy or after Bootsy ???
,,,,quote James Brown..."you just talking loud but....
listen to shoo be do be do dah day and get back to me about feel

[AltGrendel]

You are forgetting Carol Kaye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Kaye), she was a huge part of that era and a core member of "The Wreaking Crew".

[D.A.R.K.]

for me, what is so great about it is how the bass is the low end that drives the tune production-wise, not the kick drum.
very in your face, but not in the way of the other instruments.

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

The appeal is that you're listening to the contemporary sound of bass. It's easy to lose sight of the fact when you've heard what came after.

You're listening to history. It helps to listen in context. At the time, that tone was NEW. Just like Stanley Clarke's tone was new in the early 70's or Chris Squire, etc. You couldn't have the sound of roundwounds before they were in use.


I am curious though... what are examples of the muddy and indistinct tone you heard? I heard a lot of very well defined bass from that era, in fact the vast majority of it. And when you consider that back then a lot of it was heard on a tiny whizzer cone speaker in the dashboard of an automobile or a kitchen table radio vs. the equipment available today...

+1. Esp. since you mentioned three of my fav groups (esp. Erykah's live band). Think about it, there werent alot of choice of amps back then, and even though Braylon's rockin a Fender MM, that Aguilar rig is quite more articulate and even hi fi than say, an ole school Acoustic. Gotta understand the era.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by LiF

Ha ha ha! You won't believe this, but the guys with that sound.

Jamerson, Babbit, Chuck Rainey, Rocco, Nate Philipson. Then of course Bernard Edwards.

I don't see how Bernard Edwards can be seen as having a muddy and indistinct tone. First of all, he used a Stingray, and he had significantly more top end than than someone like Jamerson. The bass was also more clearly recorded on his records than on the earlier Motown/Atlantic/Stax/King music.

[LiF]

Originally Posted by Clark Dark

since your Original Post referenced "old school"
you never "got" Bernadette ? Darling Dear ? How long has the evening train been gone ? Signed Sealed and Delivered ? What's going On ? Even Jamersons upright work on older Stevie Wonder hits like "I don't know why I love you", "Shoo be doo be do da day" and other #1 hits for other Motown Tamla artists before his P Bass days ??? You never "felt" Babbitt ???
you never "got" any of James Browns funk ? whether with Bootsy, before Bootsy or after Bootsy ???
,,,,quote James Brown..."you just talking loud but....
listen to shoo be do be do dah day and get back to me about feel

You see, pretty much all those tracks have what I would call a pretty indistinct tone. Not clear. Certainly trying to transcribe them isn't easy on the ear.

You have misread my post, too. I'm not saying it isn't great music, or ground breaking stuff, it is. I just don't dig the actual tone of the bass.

[LiF]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I don't see how Bernard Edwards can be seen as having a muddy and indistinct tone. First of all, he used a Stingray, and he had significantly more top end than than someone like Jamerson. The bass was also more clearly recorded on his records than on the earlier Motown/Atlantic/Stax/King music.

I didn't say he was. I was replying to a question of who my funk heroes are. Certainly by the time Bernard came on the scene music and recording technology had moved on, the Stingray was here. A very different sound to what came before.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by LiF

What's so great about the old school funk sound?

I'm not so sure there's anything "so great" about the old school funk sound independent of old school funk, period. And I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone claim they loved the tone of those old school funk bassists independent of the genre.

It's the package.

It's not that the bass sound is so great, rather simply that it's an integral iconic component of a complete package that feels great.

Also, that bass tone works in the context; it contributes, rather than detracts, without necessarily calling attention to itself. The thing to me that makes old school funk so much, well, funkier than more modern styles is that you rarely find yourself listening & thinking "Day-um, that bass player is so funky!" without also thinking "Day-um, that guitar player is so funky!" and "Day-um, that drummer is so funky!" and "Day-um, those horn players are so funky!" etc. etc. In fact, most of the time they're so tightly interwoven that it just never occurs to me to single any of them out; I'm too busy thinking "Day-um, that tune is so funky!"

But I never listened to any old school funk and thought "Day-um, that bass tone is great!" The tone just was.

[3toes]

Funk is supposed to be DIIIIIIRRRRRRTTTTTTTY!

The word "funk", once defined in dictionaries as body odor or the smell of sexual intercourse, was commonly regarded as coarse or indecent. African-American musicians originally applied "funk" to music with a slow, mellow groove, then later with a hard-driving, insistent rhythm because of the word's association with sexual intercourse.