Where does non-conformity fit in?

squeegeebrown · #1 02-07-2009, 02:50 PM

Admittedly, I don't post on here very often so I won't try to act like I am an active part of this online,low end brotherhood.I have a great love for the bass and alot of respect for those of you who share my passion.However, I am always astounded by the limiting parameters I see put on bassists.(Ie;groove,chops,what gear we use,all the way to how we recycle the heroes of the past.No offense meant but I don't ever need to read another story about Jaco.) What is it that keeps the focus on these particular things and folks who eschew the traditional approach are not taken as seriously? Is non-conformity somehow a threat to what is considered the sacred core of bass playing? I am truly interested to hear what some of you think!

baalroo · #2 02-07-2009, 05:10 PM

keep in mind a lot of the guys here play in cover bands where the entire point is to copy other people. Besides that, the definition of conformity pretty much answers the rest of the question.

fdeck · #3 02-07-2009, 06:26 PM

Nothing wrong with non-conformity. Many of the heroes, are heroes because they were the non-conformists of their times.

With that said, non-conformity could mean that you have a unique vision, or it could mean that you are merely dysfunctional. It could mean that you have invented something new and valuable, or that you are going down the same blind alley that others have gone down.

There's no sure way to judge which category any particular musician falls into. But at the very least, if a player shows you that they have mastered traditional techniques and styles, then at the very least you know their non-conformism is not simply a smoke screen. Weeding out players who can't conform is not an unreasonable rule of thumb.

Conformity has another aspect: The ability to function in an ensemble is necessary in order to play with and learn from other musicians. Failure to learn from exposure to other musicians is generally an insurmountable roadblock. The "conformist" who develops as a musician before breaking out of the mold will probably advance further than one who chooses non-conformity from the start.

squeegeebrown · #4 02-07-2009, 06:26 PM

Thanks for the reply.I suppose that I sometimes forget not everyone is playing for the same reasons.Thank you for reminding me of that. I certainly mean no disrespect,just was interested to see what people's take on this would be

thobbinghotrod · #5 02-07-2009, 06:32 PM

Every week a new guy will ask a question that's been asked a thousand times already. Not because he can't do a search but because he wants to connect with someone about a topic. New people = new discussion so these threads go on forever. They can become tedious. Some of my first posts would embarrass me now, but I needed affirmation that I was headed in the right direction.

So it's easy to feel a part of the herd if I can find common ground.

squeegeebrown · #6 02-07-2009, 06:37 PM

...and thanks to you as well Fdeck. I wholeheartedly understand what you are saying. Had I not been through multiple bands through the years I would have never been in the position to be secure in my decision to go in a direction contrary to much of what I felt had been force fed to me by the bass community at large(and plenty of which I had swallowed over the years). I'm in no way dismissing those who embrace these ideals.After all we are all devotees to our instrument of choice.
I just happened to get to the point where I needed a change and decided to go down a different path. Thanks for your insight,much appreciated!

squeegeebrown · #7 02-07-2009, 06:46 PM

hey t-hotrod. not sure if you re saying that i should have done a search or that i should be embarrassed by my post,but you are correct in assuming that i wanted to connect with some folks on this issue. i don't dwell in this particular bass world on a regular basis and i am kind of detached form the traditionalist ideals.simple curiosity!

superbassman2000 · #8 02-07-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegeebrown

Admittedly, I don't post on here very often so I won't try to act like I am an active part of this online,low end brotherhood.I have a great love for the bass and alot of respect for those of you who share my passion.However, I am always astounded by the limiting parameters I see put on bassists.(Ie;groove,chops,what gear we use,all the way to how we recycle the heroes of the past.No offense meant but I don't ever need to read another story about Jaco.) What is it that keeps the focus on these particular things and folks who eschew the traditional approach are not taken as seriously? Is non-conformity somehow a threat to what is considered the sacred core of bass playing? I am truly interested to hear what some of you think!

This is an interesting question. I think its interesting to call groove a limit to serious bass playing. same thing with chops. As for talking about heroes of the past, thats the only timeframe we have--it's very difficult for me to talk about heroes of the future lol

as far as being considered a serious musician without taking a traditional approach--it can be done--you just need something to say. Heck, look at Reed Mathis, back when he was with Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey--he used to have these extended bass solos drenched in whammy, reverb and wah and he rocked because he knew what he was doing.

I would say that your idea of non-conformity is skewed too. Who is a bass player who gets looked down on for not conforming to the traditional approach? Heck, Jaco didn't conform to the traditional role of the bass at that time, but to you he is old news.

Or are you asking why experimental artists aren't commercially successful? because thats a whole new thread lol

thobbinghotrod · #9 02-07-2009, 07:53 PM

I was saying that new people pop up every day that keep all of the same old topics in rotation, that's why you see a Jaco thread every other day. We all going through a learnig curve, and it's pretty predictable.

A lot of people are past this stage before they even hear of Talk Bass. It sounds like you're in that camp.

In my case:

I asked the usual Ohms and what they mean to speakers question.

Then I played some basses and amps that people were talking about on here and felt connected if we had similar expiriences. (and swayed by thier opinions)

Then I checked out Victor and Jaco, etc.. when I hadn't heard of them before.

So I needed those threads at certain times and once I knew about them I thought why in the h3ll does everybody keep bringing this stuff up.

So all this means that Talkbass goes on forever.

And no there is no way for you to have searched for an abstract question like yours.

knumbskull · #10 02-07-2009, 08:21 PM

the answer isn't on here, it's something you'll find through playing.

...errr, don't mean to go all abstract there.

...Talkbass is a fine resource for information but some things are a question of personal experience.

....also, remember that it's natural for people to be influenced by certian players or manufacturers, and to discuss this at length on forums like this one. nothing wrong with it, just keep in mind it doesn't necessarily relate to your taste in music or experience playing the bass.

play, listen, enjoy.

tonight, i will be mostly stating the obvious

squeegeebrown · #11 02-08-2009, 07:23 AM

Hey - Thanks everyone for some well considered and thought provoking answers.It's nice to know that people are out there and willing to share their thoughts on something a bit different.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clear on a few points.I understand the need for information of all sorts to be out there and readily available for whoever may need it -be it neophyte,veteran or anyone at any stage of their musical growth.. We can all learn something we've never known or maybe even thought of and however it manifests itself within in our form of creative expression is a pretty cool something to see unveiled as time passes. I was (at least in my head

) suggesting that maybe we could find some new things - be it techniques(traditional or otherwise) or players who are bringing something a bit different to the table. And...let me make it clear...I LOVED Jaco, man!!! It just got to the point for me where I thought, how much more of this do we really need.There isn't that much, if any fresh information to be gleaned from any of these articles that we see in Bass Player or other publications.His legend and yes, non-conformity are well preserved for those who need to reference them. I'm thinking they need to make room for fellas like you and me

Anyway - excuse the rambling(and can you believe I've managed it all prior to my first cup of coffee!) You guys all make me proud to be a bass player and a part of something really cool and unique. Thanks alot for that!!!

And Superbassman - I might be leaning a bit toward that experimental artists question but I'm not sure I am ready for what you might have to say on the subject LOL!!! Have a great day y'all...

superbassman2000 · #12 02-08-2009, 08:56 AM

I think the one thing here is that you are talking about what you are seeing in magazines and possibly popular music. In that sense, non-conformity won't fit in, because both of those things have one thing in mind--profit. While BP can give us some helpful insight into the world of traditional bass playing, writing an article about playing a bass with a drum stick probably won't sell a lot of magazines--same thing for popular music. There are a lot more AC/DC cds being sold than bjork cds--thats not controlled by the musician even--its controlled by the consumer.
Thats where i picked up an experimental-being-commercially-successful tone to your post. I don't think i have ever seen a bass player being totally ostracized, whether in BP, talkbass, or anywhere else, for trying something new with the bass. Granted, nobody will buy the cd of said bass player or go to the shows, and thats where the commercial success drops off.
another reason that people here and on BP talk a lot about the traditional role of bass playing and all that jazz is because a lot of people here and with BP are making money with their music, even if it is a cover band. The majority of people out there want to hear songs that are familiar to them. Back with the ACDC/bjork comparison. When ACDC came out with this new cd, it sold a lot of copies. Why? because it sounds like ACDC. Bjork might come out with something completely new and brilliant, but a lot of people will pass it off as "too out-there" So back to talkbass and BP, there are more people making money in an AC/DC cover band than there are people making money in a Bjork cover band, so thats why there is more buzz about Cliff Williams and what gear he is using, rather than what Michael Vick (not the football player) is playing.

lol as a little sidenote, now that i think about it, i would say there is a lot of buzz about the non-conformists as well. I would say a lot of the heroes now and the past are people who don't conform with the traditional role of bass playing--guys like wooten and hamm are playing melodies at the same time as basslines, manring and jaco took it a step farther and plays ultra melodically without always playing the bassline, Cliff Burton played a lot of solos and from what i hear even did a lot of layering in their recordings, claypool does his crazy stuff that isn't traditional. Those guy are the ones getting all the buzz, not the bass player for matchbox 20.

ForestThump · #13 02-09-2009, 04:47 PM

I think it is pointless to think in terms of conformity.
Most of us are conforming straight away by sticking with a 12 tone scale.
No matter what, just playing a 4, 5, 6, 8 or 12 string bass is a conformity.
Slap, pop, twang, finger-style, pick-style, e-bow, etc. are all ways of conforming to well established techniques.
Walking bass, solo melodies, double and triple stops, harmonics, etc. all conform.
SO WHAT?
It is just important to play what you think sounds the best for whatever project you are involved in.
I have never played in any musical context where slap style would have been appropriate and have never felt that I had to "conform" and play like that.
One thing I don't really like on this forum is guitarist bashing or the whole "guitard thing". I really like the guitarists that I play music with. They are very serious musicians that I respect and don't understand the guitarist bashing. Why play music with someone you don't respect?
We all have our individual feelings about the type of basses we like and I don't think it is
necessary to "conform" with any of the almost militant snobbery in that department.
Hell, just participating on a forum is a form of conformity.
I'm rambling. sorry.

dblbass · #14 02-09-2009, 05:08 PM

there is also the difference between knowing what you are doing and not. Its really easy to not conform when you are totally clueless. I could have recorded what sounded like a really experimental album when i was 8 but thats because i didnt know anything about music. when claypool recorded his stuff he knows what he was doing. its weird and its far out but he knows whats up.

hazboy2000 · #15 02-09-2009, 05:19 PM

You all are getting way to theoretical about everything. Just feel it and play!

hazboy2000 · #16 02-09-2009, 05:41 PM

So the question is about where non-conformity fits in...
Non-comformity is a great attitude towards life. (especially this alternate, universal language of music. Can you speak Japanese? - that's the point.)
Something new is in-utero, and here's my challenge, my friends - the time is right for something new. Step up to the plate... -Steve

Barkless Dog · #17 02-10-2009, 05:13 AM

The role of the typical bass player is to conform to the band, music & song-being selfless.

The bass player is like an offensive lineman, without a great offensive line NO ONE CAN SHINE, the band sucks.

I can't think of very few non musicians who would enjoy any bass solo or solo bass concert, so the public is not really clamoring for the bass to step up, and innovate unless they want to go get a beer. If the bass changes its role someone still needs to hold the bottom down.

Therefore a lot of bass players accept their role and are not open minded about other bass roles. Lets face it, it's not the bass players road to success financially.

That is why there really are so few major breakthrough commercial bassists-Lets face it most people want the bass to be "the bass".

People like John Entwistle, Stanley Clarke, Jaco, Peter Hook & Les Claypool really stand out to me, as players who really innovated the role of bass in an accessible mass market context. I also love Justin Meldal Johnson's bass work, who is very chameleon like in that he pushes the bass boundaries without going off the edge of his role. He makes creative bass work in a commercial context. Probably one of the most innovative commercial bassists I can think of today. I always an excited to hear what he will do next.

Stinsok · #18 02-10-2009, 05:35 AM

From Southpark--" You have to listen to the same music as us, if you want to be a non-comformist."

Jake of Bass · #19 02-10-2009, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

Nothing wrong with non-conformity. Many of the heroes, are heroes because they were the non-conformists of their times.

With that said, non-conformity could mean that you have a unique vision, or it could mean that you are merely dysfunctional. It could mean that you have invented something new and valuable, or that you are going down the same blind alley that others have gone down.

There's no sure way to judge which category any particular musician falls into. But at the very least, if a player shows you that they have mastered traditional techniques and styles, then at the very least you know their non-conformism is not simply a smoke screen. Weeding out players who can't conform is not an unreasonable rule of thumb.

Conformity has another aspect: The ability to function in an ensemble is necessary in order to play with and learn from other musicians. Failure to learn from exposure to other musicians is generally an insurmountable roadblock. The "conformist" who develops as a musician before breaking out of the mold will probably advance further than one who chooses non-conformity from the start.

Well said.

I think the old chestnut about letting your ears being the judge is probably the truest measure. Then you're not thinking about rules and whether to follow or break them, you're simply trying to create something that has a sound you are after.

I think a lot of so called "non-conformists" who were ground breaking weren't intending to be as such, at least initially, they were just following what their senses and their heart told them, and the music they heard was louder than any criticism or praise.

Of course, this said clearly IMHO.

Kindofblue · #20 02-10-2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

This is an interesting question. I think its interesting to call groove a limit to serious bass playing. same thing with chops. As for talking about heroes of the past, thats the only timeframe we have--it's very difficult for me to talk about heroes of the future lol

as far as being considered a serious musician without taking a traditional approach--it can be done--you just need something to say. Heck, look at Reed Mathis, back when he was with Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey--he used to have these extended bass solos drenched in whammy, reverb and wah and he rocked because he knew what he was doing.

I would say that your idea of non-conformity is skewed too. Who is a bass player who gets looked down on for not conforming to the traditional approach? Heck, Jaco didn't conform to the traditional role of the bass at that time, but to you he is old news.

Or are you asking why experimental artists aren't commercially successful? because thats a whole new thread lol

This basically sums up anything I was about to say haha