Would Jamerson have been one of the great jazz players?

[Mark Perry]

I've been getting into Jamerson basslines recently, absolute genius. Also spent a significant part of the last year trying to play my double bass. It's struck me recently just how strong a part the mans background in jazz upright playing played in his style on the electric bass.

If you put _______ _________ (influential jazz UR bassist of your choice) into the same situation (playing R&B for a living) would they have just as strong an impact as Jamerson did?
Also if Jamerson had played with the big jazz names would he be up there with the great jazz bassists?

imo, many of the great jazz bassists (Chambers, Carter, Brown etc.) would have had a similar sized impact as Jamerson. And Jamerson would have made a huge impact as a jazz bassist.

What do the rest of you think?

[RHFusillo]

I think that he would have been at least a very good jazz double bassist, if not the major innovator that he was on electric. In the Standing in the Shadows of Motown DVD, they play a recording of Jamerson with a jazz group. He sounds much like Paul Chambers.

As far as the great jazz double bassists making an impact on electric bass, they would have had to like the instrument. Ron Carter and Richard Davis, among others, played Fender bass for a while and did not like it.

[musicman5string]

IMO, Jamerson would have been a killin jazz bassist had he chosen to only play jazz on upright, as he was a great jazz player on upright anyway.
Would Ray Brown or Ron Carter have had the impact Jamerson did on electric? No. Why do I say that? Because they both did their share of sessions on electric, none of which is memorable, and certainly not ground breaking.

[Richard Lindsey]

Who knows? I dunno that there's enough evidence to say. It seems that Jamerson was at least a competent to decent jazz bassist, but that doesn't mean he would have been as astonishing as Scott La Faro or as all around brilliant as Ray Brown on it. Maybe he would have if he had dedicated his life to it. Then again, maybe he would have never have been much more than a respectable journeyman on the URB; maybe he was lucky enough to find the right instrument for him in the EBG. Maybe if Ron Carter or Ray Brown had really loved the electric bass and dedicated themselves to it, they would have come out with something as brilliant as what Jamerson did on the EBG. Maybe not; maybe they also found the right instrument for them.

We'll never know. Maybe, in the end, these guys all played the instruments they were "meant to" play and were best at.

[TopCat]

After just listening to a few of the man's masterworks it's obvious that such a genius would have thrived in whatever field he applied himself to...

Certainly not just limited to bass

[Mark Perry]

Originally Posted by RHFusillo

I think that he would have been at least a very good jazz double bassist, if not the major innovator that he was on electric. In the Standing in the Shadows of Motown DVD, they play a recording of Jamerson with a jazz group. He sounds much like Paul Chambers.

As far as the great jazz double bassists making an impact on electric bass, they would have had to like the instrument. Ron Carter and Richard Davis, among others, played Fender bass for a while and did not like it.

I've also got Standing in the shadows of Motown, the recording of him playing jazz is incredible. The funk brothers were all highly skilled jazz musicians, as can be clearly heard in that recording. He did spend most of his professional life playing for motown, he wouldn't have had much chance to record with the big jazz names because of his contract.
I was thinking along the lines of what would have happened if certain big jazz bassists lived in similar circumstances to Jamerson. Jamerson didn't like the electric bass himself at first, if it had been essential for Ron Carter, Ray Brown etc. to play electric as their main instrument, in order to make a living, would they have thought differently?

[burk48237]

Knowing what the Jazz scene was like in Detroit at the time with guys like Yusef Latef, Kenny Burrell, Elvin Jones, playing around town often, I imagine Jamerson played plenty of jams with some of the Jazz greats. Bakers Keyboard (the oldest Jazz club in the country) was a hangout of the motown boys. Jamerson started on string bass, and he was a known in the Jazz scene in Detroit before Motown was a force. But I imagine he was so busy at motown he never got around to really exploring it. This was way before session guys were known as individual artist and started doing solo CD's. Dennis Coffey (motown guitar player) did a couple of Jazz albums.

[Vandelay]

The book version of Standing in the Shadows of Motown comes with 2 CDs, and one of the tracks is a 5-minute live recording of Jamerson playing upright jazz with Dennis Coffey. It's a lo-fi recording, but his playing is excellent!

[marcray]

I think Jamerson would have been a great jazz bassist, I believe he was one from what I've heard, but as far as the impact other jazz bassists would have had, you have to loook at it in a different way... It wasn't just Jamersons lines, it was his production creativity as a whole that should be admired... he wasn't a songwriter per se but from what I've heard and read he would direct some sessions at Motown molding the whole arrangement for the song, working closely with the writers. An arguement could be made that he was in effect a co-producer of the musical basic track of many Motown hits. Whether the other jazz players would have had the same instincts for pop music that Jamerson had is doubtable to me.

[mambo4]

Weren't the Mowtown musicians contracts exclusive, non-compete affairs?

Perhaps Jamerson was not legally "allowed" to record with the era's Jazz greats, and thus few recordings of his jazz skills, thus too little exposure in the history of the genere... don't know wasn't born yet :P

His imapct on electric bass is undeniable, and more relavent to me as a player. In fact, I'd be much more interted in hearing Jamerson do a 'Motowon' style interpretation of all thise Jazz standards on his P-bass, than traditional URB jass playing.

[Dr. Cheese]

James Jamerson was a well schooled musician who had the tools to be great at jazz, and if he had played jazz fulltime, I think he would have a decent shot at being known as a great player.

Frankly, I'm glad he ended up at Motown because he ended up contributing something very wonderful and unique to popular music that really lifted up the electric bass in a way that the young instrument really needed. The chances that he would have had a similar impact in jazz are much lower because the tradition already was several generations old by the time he came of age.

[dougjwray]

A slight diversion...

I remember reading once about how Berry Gordy used to tell Jamerson not to play "all that jazz stuff" at the Motown sessions! He would get really frustrated with him, apparently.
It's hilarious, but it also increases your respect for Jamerson to realize that he had the guts to go against his boss's orders and play what he wanted-- and that what he wanted was complex and advanced and yet he still made it work "for the song."

[joelb79]

The world would not be the same had somebody not handed James a P and said "Play this thing"

JMHO.

[Mark Perry]

Originally Posted by joelb79

The world would not be the same had somebody not handed James a P and said "Play this thing"

JMHO.

I comepletly agree with you, i just noticed how his entire approach to any kind of bass playing is strongly rooted in the techniques (harmonically, melodically, rythmically, technicaly etc.) he and other jazz bassists were using at the time.
imho, many of the instincts for producing the kind of lines he made would've been highly developed through his jazz playing roots. If someone like Paul Chamers (For example) had been in an almost identical situation, he may have had a very similar impact as Jamerson did. All mho of course...

[bassksun]

Originally Posted by burk48237

Knowing what the Jazz scene was like in Detroit at the time with guys like Yusef Latef, Kenny Burrell, Elvin Jones, playing around town often, I imagine Jamerson played plenty of jams with some of the Jazz greats. Bakers Keyboard (the oldest Jazz club in the country) was a hangout of the motown boys. Jamerson started on string bass, and he was a known in the Jazz scene in Detroit before Motown was a force. But I imagine he was so busy at motown he never got around to really exploring it. This was way before session guys were known as individual artist and started doing solo CD's. Dennis Coffey (motown guitar player) did a couple of Jazz albums.

Don't forget Donald Byrd. JJ was a regular at Baker's with the rest of the musicians, but as a family friend told it; everyone always wanted to jam with him but the $$ from Berry and the fact that he was usually drunk (and a mean drunk at that) kept him off the scene. He did do one session with the McKinney Cottonpickers at a club on the eastside, the name escapes me, but we are going waaay back in Detroit history.

[steveb98]

Hard to speculate on this. Jamerson was a great player and his DB and Jazz background came through in his famous works. I think if he was going to a Jazz great we would of heard it before he passed. So I say he was a good jazz player, but probably wasn't destine to be a Jazz Great. Regretfully won't ever know.

[GM60466]

Would Mr. J been a great Jazz bassist?
Does a bear sh*t in the woods.
Most of his funk machine stuff is very influenced by jazz.

GM

[bassbrad]

This is an interesting 'what if' question and I am enjoying reading people's feels on this. My own is that we are all lucky that that young Jamerson was sucked into the Snake Pit at Motown and he was allowed and forced to be endlessly creative, day after day after day. He showed us all that the possibilities of bass are endless.