Young Gospel Bassist- Arrogance or Confidence?

[Bobbo 77']

Hola,
Question to the Gospel Bassist. I read Fountainboys post 2-24-06 "What is it that makes "Gospel Bassist" master of Groove"
Quote- "All I can recommend (as you already know),is to be aware that if they walk in a music store & you are playing something without conviction or surety,those guy's have an uncanny ability to sniff you out, plug up near you, & run through so much material that all you can do is bow out gracefully & concede defeat"

Now, I'm a Bassist thats been trying to do my thang for 28 yrs, and yes, I rememeber what it was like to be a "Young Bass Player", cocky, but I was mentored by older musicians that did'nt play games, and you could be put in your place quickly. Now, it seems from some of those post that it's part of the Gospel Bass playin' community for One Ups manship, or are'nt these young cat's listening to the sermons, and the importannce of being "Humble in all things". I'd expect that kind of attitude on the B.ball courts, but in church?? What about the Church Musical directors, elders, not keeping some of these youngbloods in check? Especially for are Christian walk, Jesus ask us to "Humble ourselves" " The proud attitude heads the seven things God hates Prov.6:16-17.

I'd like for you' all to chime in on this. I'm not a prude, but is this just the way it is in the Gospel community?

Bobbo 77'

[fountain boy]

*sets up tent and watches for replies*

Wassup Bobbo 77! Yep, it's at times dog eat dog out there in these music stores.

In the Washington DC area alone, it's a bustling community for young gospel bassists. On this eastern seaboard, we have Philly, New Jersey and New York above us and below there's the Carolina, north and south Georgia and Florida, implying that there's no shortage of heavy gospel cats out here.

It was brought to my attention by another musician in the post (Brad Johnson) that sometimes what might sound like one upmanship to one person could very well be simply a musican just doing his thing. To an extent i can agree but everyone has tasted the sting of being 'shown up' or has had the unpleasant experience of having a group of more experienced players swarm around them and then try to act very condescending towards you, talk around you to their boys or ask to play the bass your playing and retune it up in your face, as if to belittle you. And sometimes you can't always slink away out of the situation, it's almost as if your at another's persons mercy for that moment.

Now, i can't be the only one that has been in like situations?

Maybe, maybe not. Ususally these little petty head games are played with these gospel cats (not try to classify them all cause i admire their abilities) which sometimes get very predictable.

[Bobbo 77']

Hey Fountain boy, good to hear from ya'!

Yes, I've been in some situations, and I know there's lots a competition out there, got's to make a name for themselves, I guess it's Bassplayin' as sport!

I've got the welcome mat out!

Bobbo 77'

[T-Funk]

Originally Posted by Bobbo 77'

I'd like for you' all to chime in on this. I'm not a prude, but is this just the way it is in the Gospel community?

Based upon my experience, in the Urban Gospel community, I sadly must say the overall answer is "yes". However, it is not just the young musicians. Egotism, pride and "one ups manship" have become increasingly more abundant over the years regardless of age.

Based upon my experience, when it comes to musicians, too many churches care far more about a person's musical chops than a person's devotion to the Lord. Unfortunately, the latter is too often an afterthought.

Based upon my experience, as a result, the gospel music scene today has become too concerned about showmanship instead of true, heart-filled worship to the Lord.

Ted

[Bobbo 77']

T-Funk, glad you came on board. I guess there's nothing new under the Sun, huh?? i guess it's like dealing with a all-world, superstar athlete, cancer to the team, lockerroom, and management, but puts up the numbers and booty's in the seats!
I agree whole-heartedly with your observation's.

God Bless,
Bobbo 77'

[IotaNet]

I have a lot to say about this topic but Talkbass.com is not the place for it.

[Dr. Cheese]

Maybe this is not the forum, but I really think the person who has a need to show up another player is suffering from some very basic existential and spiritual issues. It's no different from a young dude who feels he needs to "flex" on the court or in the club.

It's not just a lack religion, it reflects some serious shortcomings in society in general. Iota was right. This is not the place to really broach this topic.

[JAUQO III-X]

I'm not here to bash Gospel Bass players but just a few days ago I was having a conversation with an older Gospel Bass player and we got on the subject of groove and from there on the subject of Gospel Bass players And I shared with him the things I've noticed in my experience with a pretty decent % of Gospel Bassist and that is a lot of them are extremely arrogant,they really lack in the serious grooving department,most seem to be very negative towards most other Bassist who happen to not belong to their click and they think they know everything about Bass and God.

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by T-Funk

Based upon my experience, in the Urban Gospel community, I sadly must say the overall answer is "yes". However, it is not just the young musicians. Egotism, pride and "one ups manship" have become increasingly more abundant over the years regardless of age.

Based upon my experience, when it comes to musicians, too many churches care far more about a person's musical chops than a person's devotion to the Lord. Unfortunately, the latter is too often an afterthought.

Based upon my experience, as a result, the gospel music scene today has become too concerned about showmanship instead of true, heart-filled worship to the Lord.

Ted

Unfortunately, I have seen the same attitude among many in the Urban gospel community when I was involved in a Large local church that was "on the edge" of the Urban Gospel scene. The attitude was similar to a basketball player who ignores the team to show up the person guarding him. These attitudes were excused as being "hip", sadly as I learned from the lives of the persons involved they were actually pridefull and had no place in the body of Christ.

From my experience it's a safe bet that much of what is going on behind closed doors in these players lives would not be evidence of Godly living. What your seeing in these lives is the surface, from what I've seen what is "behind the scenes" is far worse. The sad thing is the Church that created this enviorment where skill and the ability to draw more people to the service with "showmanship" was more important then the display of Godly attitudes among those leading worship is still at it today with a different set of leaders without any accountability.

Skill in serving God IS important and we are commanded by God to give Him our best in worship. But the most important thing is still to live our lives following Christ, everything else is just fluff.

[bobbykokinos]

Im just speaking from my experience so it may not be shared with others.

I've ran into a couple gospel players at my local guitar center while I was trying out some basses. The would come in, plug in a bass, and slap the crap out of it.. Ok, thats fine, if thats what you are into. Then, they would stop playing and look over and hear me play a Bb 12 bar blues walking jazz line and ask me "How do you do that?". Without going into a whole theory lesson I just tell them you have to feel it. I'd play some slap stuff afterwards and I get the "Damn, white boy can play" response. I grin and laugh it off and take it as a compliment. Several times, they have asked me to choose a key and just have a small bass jam which is always fun.

I always get the "So, what church do you play at?". I respond that I dont play at a church (I'm Orthodox, so all of our music in is in the byzantine chanting style). I've even been invited to play at their churchs which I have once. I'll be honest, I was nervous because I've never been in that situation before. No music, no idea of what to play, and (to be brutally honest) the only young white boy in the whole church. But, they made me feel right at home. I was sitting next to the organ player and he would yell out the changes as I was playing. Even though Im Orthodox, I can't deny the fact it was a spirtual experience.

So, my experiences have been opposite to most peoples. I too have also heard some musicians/bassists in the gospel community being arrogant but havent experienced it in person.

[jerm]

church players are some of the best players around, at least they think they are.

[Billy Low]

There was a thread like this about 3 years back relating to the brand of basses that gospel players use. The overwhelming consensus then was that a large portion of gospel players were arrogant, cocky, and brash. But I would like to add that this is not limited to age, race, sex, or BASSIST! Most of the church musicians and music directors I have come across unfortunately have been the worst people to deal with!

I read an article by a famous choir director that stated that musicians and choir directors deserve to be payed as much as the pastors, because it is they who dictate the direction and spiritual level of the service. Now there is no arrogance in that statement is there?

[Woodchuck]

From a different perspective. Knowing Andrew Gouche, he is one of the most humble bassist around. I've heard the same about Maurice Fitzgerald. Here's the kicker: They've already "made it". Maybe it's one's who are still trying to make it, and maybe they think that's the best way to go about it. In my experiences, it's been the drummers who are arrogant.

[willgroove2]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I'm not here to bash Gospel Bass players but just a few days ago I was having a conversation with an older Gospel Bass player and we got on the subject of groove and from there on the subject of Gospel Bass players And I shared with him the things I've noticed in my experience with a pretty decent % of Gospel Bassist and that is a lot of them are extremely arrogant,they really lack in the serious grooving department,most seem to be very negative towards most other Bassist who happen to not belong to their click and they think they know everything about Bass and God.

J ,you and i know so many of the same people that i wonder who that was your talking about.anyway,most of the primary gospel bassist i know (and i know a ton of them,including the top guy's)are fairly cool guy's who live in their own world to a fault.in that respect they can be like guy's who are deep into metal or punk;they are not aware of thing's beyond what they do.because so much of modern gospel bass is rooted in funk and r&b it is interesting to me that some of these guy's know so little about it from a historical perspective.most of the arrogance comes from not knowing what you don't know.as far as the grooving department when i think of gospel bassist i think of them as energy guy's as opposed to groove guy's,of course there are exceptions to that.the funny thing is,most of the older gospel guy's i know (35+) have issues with the younger set,although that has a lot to do with younger guy's getting opportunity's that the older ones didn't outside of gospel.

[ElMon]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

From a different perspective. Knowing Andrew Gouche, he is one of the most humble people around. I've heard the same Maurice Fitzgerald. Here's the kicker: They've already "made it". Maybe it's one's who are still trying to make it, and maybe they think that's the best way to go about it. In my experiences, it's been the drummers who are arrogant.

I've heard much the same about Gouche, but my drummer, having met Fitzgerald, described him as a "supreme dick", not to mention the issue of him 'borrowing' from kevin brubacker and refusing to give it back. Just another reflection on human beings in general I guess. Some cool, some not. You'll find that like any style of music or in life in general, the A-holes don't last too long.

[IotaNet]

Originally Posted by bobbykokinos

. I'd play some slap stuff afterwards and I get the "Damn, white boy can play" response. I grin and laugh it off and take it as a compliment.

ROFLMAO -- I can "hear" that!!!

You were right -- that was a serious compliment!

[JAUQO III-X]

You re correct Will,but you know that there are exceptions to the rule.again my experience with a pretty sizable % thru my travels locally and state side has been as I described in my earlier post and I've known Andrew Gouche for years and he's not only a talented musician but a very nice and down to earth individual as well.

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

You re correct Will,but you know that there are exceptions to the rule.again my experience with a pretty sizable % thru my travels locally and state side has been as I described in my earlier post and I've known Andrew Gouche for years and he's not only a talented musician but a very nice and down to earth individual as well.

I know my last post was fairly harsh. But I want to make it clear their are plenty of great Gospel Bassist who ave great hearts and our sincere in their service of God. In the local Detroit area one that comes to mind fairly quickly is Will Pope, at word of Faith. I've known him for years and I have seen nothing but humility and defference to others even though he is truely a monster player (the guys at LDS will vouch for that). Also one other thing to keep in mind is not every Gospel bassplayer is a Christian. One of the players mentioned here is on the road with Beyonice right now and I know another player who goes from Nelly to Gospel Choir gigs. For many of these guys it's just "another gig". My fault is not with the players but the churches that are accepting of that lowered standard.

[Dr. Cheese]

Burk, Knowing your attitudes from the old political posts, I can't help but be suspicious of your eagerness to dump on "urban gospel." This sounds like so many of your posts that have criticized Black people and black culture. Responses like yours is probably why some here, including myself were leery of discussing this issue in this particular medium. I assume you are involved in more than one community of church music. Are "urban" players the only ones you know who fall short of Christian ideals?

[IotaNet]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

... some here, including myself were leery of discussing this issue in this particular medium ...

Exactly.