Broken feel

debasser! · #1 07-20-2009, 02:13 PM

Hi folks.

I was wondering if I could get an open brain storm about 'broken feel', or in particular, 'broken swing feel'. It seems to me many people have a slightly different idea about exactly a broken feel is. Maybe it's a drummer/bass thing, but I've always thought of a 'broken feel' and being the same thing as a 'broken two feel' and then a broken straight 8th feel, being a different beast entirely. Talking to drummers, I've realised that some of them think of the broken two and broken four as different beasts. How about you guys?

It's funny, because there were a lot of albums where I remembered quite a lot of broken feels, only to find one or two examples, or none at all when going back to the album after a few years. Keith Jarret Trio being one of them, in my head, there were lots of broken two's, in reality, first head maybe, then usually into straight 4. (It's a generalisation, there were lots of other feels in there as well of course.)

I always thought of the Bill Evans Trio recordings with Scott as being a real turning point for that style, but listening closely with that in mind, even though lots of it is undeniably 'broken', it almost leans more towards group improvisation than than what I would now call a broken two feel, it's broken though, it certainly ain't 4 to the bar!

So how do others see it and do you have good recommendations for further listening?

Also, who would you say are good exponents of the style? And it's main developers?

Looking forward to your thoughts,

Damian

P.S.
I put this in the 'bassists' section because I figured it would come down to people talking about bassists that play this style, rather than a 'what I do' type conversation, so sorry if people think that's the wrong place for it, we'll see what happens I suppose!

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #2 07-20-2009, 02:23 PM

Huge can of worms with this topic, but check out Drew Gress on Fred Hersch's "Dancing in the Dark" for a great example of brilliant broken feel playing.

Marc Piane · #3 07-20-2009, 03:14 PM

HUGE can-o. Drew is definitely a master of this style. There are tons though. Most more 'modern' guys do it from time to time.

My big caveat with some bass players that do this is they fall for the 'two hips make an a$$' thing. The music still has to groove. If it's not grooving your not holding up your end.

debasser! · #4 07-21-2009, 02:38 AM

Yup, Drew Gress with Fred Hersch seems to have been one of the guys doing it in the 80's with success. I wanted to hear other peoples suggestions before I put mine forward, I don't have an awful lot mind you.

It's funny because I can hardly find another mention of it in other threads, here and there a mention yes, but conversation, not really.

Yes, I think it's agreed there are lots of examples of broken feels that don't work, walk before you run, (well, walk before you walk broken), so to speak. Let's not let that bring us down!

Who are the other masters? Forget the guys that do it from time to time for now!

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #5 07-21-2009, 05:15 AM

Scott Colley is another one who plays great broken time. There's also a whole style or genre of broken straight 8th time which guys call "ECM" around here, meaning simply a (non swung) groove that remains open and interactive throughout. With the right guys, this is a great groove to play in. With the wrong ones, not so much.

Sam Sherry · #6 07-21-2009, 06:56 AM

Two words: "Dave Holland." This one, among many, provides a clear and extraordinarily musical example.

FWIW, the controversy escapes me. It's hard to play broken time well, in part because (to paraphrase Marc), "Too hip makes an a$$." On the other hand, the corresponding trap is not grooving in "straight" two-beat time -- y'know, 'It takes more than two bumps to make an a$$' too.

debasser! · #7 07-21-2009, 08:00 AM

Yup, that straight 8th's broken to me seems like to style of choice for a whole new generation of musicians. Calling it ECM style may have been accurate some years ago, but it seems that style is common throughout nowadays, it's different of course than the ECM thing, but still, non swung, and broken.

Personally, at this point in time, I'm more interested in the broken swung stuff.

It's not that I don't like straight 8th's broken, it's just that's not what I looking at right now.

I'm gonna check that Keeny Wheeler album with DH when I have a few squids to spend at emusic but I suspect most of that stuff is straight 8th's too .The intro's for that Kenny Wheeler album all take up the whole off the sample bit for listening so you can't tell!

Thanks all, keep em coming. Specific songs even.

I'll give you one - I'll be seeing you - Larry Grenadier from Brad Mehldau Trio - Art of the Trio Volume 2. There's some hairy stuff there IMHO.

Regards,
Damian

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #8 07-21-2009, 11:43 AM

Along the lines of the "too hip makes an @$$" way of thinking brought up by Marc and the "It takes more than two humps to make an @$$" addendum that Sam threw in, I tend to think of "broken" and "swinging" grooves as all being one part of a big musical continuum, any given portion of which can be (but not necessarily *should* be) a part of any given moment of any given tune at any time - the music should always be served, but the buffet table is way bigger than we often admit.

One of the things I love about Drew's playing in addition to the way he plays "broken time" in a two feel is the way he comes back to it during walking sections and manages to break up the squareness of the walking texture while still playing quarter notes to maintain the groove. Most of the time, he does this by use of pedals and/or displacement of the changes while always keeping the big picture form directly in mind while being ready to jump back into a more "standard" version of the groove at any moment depending on what the soloist seems to want. Here's an example of me trying to apply these concepts that I copped mostly from Drew's records (broken feel on 1st solo chorus, broken walking feel later) on a recent gig. I still have a lot to learn about this continuum concept, but am glad to have guys around who are open to it and willing to explore it.

christ andronis · #9 07-21-2009, 12:18 PM

Glen Moore from Oregon is very good at this. In fact, I don't hear him do that much straight walking but he's still swinging. Check out "Live at Yoshi's" or "Prime". I'm not sure of the tune names but there are some good examples on there.

Marc Piane · #10 07-21-2009, 02:14 PM

+1 DURRL.

It's all about flow and forward momentum.

Do it because you hear it not because you think you should. That's my point about the a$$ thing. Trying to be hip, by default, is not hip.

Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole using a sledgehammer is just going to ruin the peg.

Swami

Mike Arnopol · #11 07-21-2009, 02:48 PM

Marc Johnson is one of my favorites at breaking up a time feel but having the wisdom to so strongly imply the feel that you don't notice that he's not walking or whatever. It still swings like a mutha. I love to see how much I can leave out or break things up and still imply a strong feel. Kelly Sill here in town is awesome at that and a mentor of mine. For me the biggest compliment is when a drummer says that he wasn't aware that I wasn't playing 4.

Marc Piane · #12 07-21-2009, 05:19 PM

What hasn't really been mentioned is the other players. The broken thing will fall flat on its face if the guys you are playing with don't know what to do with it.

Marcus Johnson · #13 07-21-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Two words: "Dave Holland." This one, among many, provides a clear and extraordinarily musical example.

That was nice. No one is better at it than Dave.

I've heard some stuff from Mike Formanek that qualifies... sorry, no specific titles in my little brain. Also, just about any Dave Douglas record will go there at some point.

debasser! · #14 07-21-2009, 08:18 PM

Thanks everyone, I always feel like I haven't listened enough to certain players when I read your posts! I'm looking forward to getting hold of some of the recordings you're talking about.

Tell me this, and I don't want to get too bogged down in catagories, but (!), do you think Scott La Faro's work with Bill Evans fits into the 'broken' catagory, or do you think it's something else? Just curious on your opinions.

I think we can take it for granted that the style, like any other, can be abused, and played badly and out of context, I'm just checking out where it works. Despite all my listening, there's still so much great stuff I haven't heard.

I did hear John Hérbert with Fred Hersch here in Ireland, and it was almost all broken all night. Always tasty and musical I must add. It was a fantastic gig. I momentarily forget the name of the drummer, but he was equally sensitive. I think that's a key word with a broken feel. It requires big ears and a lot of sensitivity, at least the way I like to hear it. I completely agree with the comments about momentum also, the guys that do it well, you don't notice that it's broken (until I start listening with 'bass ears!')

Audiophage · #15 07-21-2009, 08:22 PM

Hah, as soon as I read broken feel I thought Scotty and now have the urge to listen to him. Regretfully, I have nothing new to add to this thread. However, I would like to see where it goes.

Marcus Johnson · #16 07-21-2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debasser!

I did hear John Hérbert with Fred Hersch here in Ireland, and it was almost all broken all night.

Nice, I like that...

It reminds me of something that Marc Johnson said, from his Bill Evans years. The great guitarist John Abercrombie was in the audience during one of their gigs. After the first set, John came running up to Marc, and said "Man, that was ****in' great! I didn't know where "one" was the whole time!"

debasser! · #17 07-24-2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Huge can of worms with this topic, but check out Drew Gress on Fred Hersch's "Dancing in the Dark" for a great example of brilliant broken feel playing.

Unfortunately Dancing in the Dark in unavailable on itunes and on emusic....
Found it on mclub.com for $1.54 for the album.. anyone heard of mclub.com?

Anyone got any suggestions of anyone playing broken in the 70's? Especially piano trio stuff. I'm going to go listen to some Bill Evans Trio from that period and see what they're up to!

Bijoux · #18 07-24-2009, 12:23 PM

Dave Holland was the guy that got me really excited about broken feel. he adds so much excitement to the music, but he also swings real hard without actually swinging! I love how he can give the illusion of the swing motion without actually playing 4's. and his groove is just monstrous! Of the more modern players out there today I like how John Patitucci plays broken feel, and also please check out Anthony Cox. I guess that you have to have a very deep connection with the music and just listen very carefully and be able to make decisions on a split second to keep the equilibrium of the groove on the edge between moving forward or falling apart! lol

debasser! · #19 07-31-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I tend to think of "broken" and "swinging" grooves as all being one part of a big musical continuum, any given portion of which can be (but not necessarily *should* be) a part of any given moment of any given tune at any time - the music should always be served, but the buffet table is way bigger than we often admit.

One of the things I love about Drew's playing in addition to the way he plays "broken time" in a two feel is the way he comes back to it during walking sections and manages to break up the squareness of the walking texture while still playing quarter notes to maintain the groove. Most of the time, he does this by use of pedals and/or displacement of the changes while always keeping the big picture form directly in mind while being ready to jump back into a more "standard" version of the groove at any moment depending on what the soloist seems to want. Here's an example of me trying to apply these concepts that I copped mostly from Drew's records (broken feel on 1st solo chorus, broken walking feel later) on a recent gig. I still have a lot to learn about this continuum concept, but am glad to have guys around who are open to it and willing to explore it.

Hi Chris,
Thanks for sticking up that link to your recording, sorry it took me so long to get to listen to it. It sounds great. Really great playing, what did you record it on?
The only thing for me is just a dumb matter of definition, but still I suppose an important one if people are going to be talking about music. I would think of your bass line in that recording as very much, broken for the head and then walking for the rest. After a few choruses you really get stuck in with some octaves and pedals, but I still think it comes under embellished walking as your primarily hitting 1,2,3,4 the vast majority of the time. This of course is no criticism! I'm happy to walk all night! Just a matter of definition.

But I'm curious as to what you think of this, I personally would have always thought of broken as having to be rhythmically broken to differentiate it from walking, so it wouldn't matter how harmonically out there the line is, if it was 1,2,3,4, it's still walking.

I suppose that's why I have never differentiated between a broken 2 and a broken 4, particularly. Again, great playing, I look forward to hearing some more, great solo also, I like the trio. The Harry Pickens Trio stuff on your website sounds great too, haven't had a chance to listen to the rest yet.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #20 07-31-2009, 06:58 AM

Thanks for listening and responding.

It was recorded on an Edirol R-09 sitting on a music stand in front of the band. The first solo chorus is broken time, but the rest, as you say, is "embellished walking". It's an interesting topic of discussion, and a lot may have to do with my own projection of what other people feel, but I notice that it's often difficult for me to break a walking line down too much without killing the momentum of the solo I'm walking behind. It almost feels like once I start walking - even "lopsided walking" - I have to basically stay there rhythmically until/unless the soloist does something to indicate something different. Or maybe I'm just not reading things correctly.

But I agree with you about this being "embellished walking" (which is sort of what I was calling "broken walking" - harmonically lopsided while rhythmically steady), and being able to walk all night if it feels right. The point I guess I was trying to emphasize is that even within the basic quarter note pulse, the line should in an ideal world be a spontaneous act of melodic/countermelodic creation based on what you're hearing from the other players.

As far as playing broken feel for extended periods of time, that's an art, too, and I hope to do more of that as time goes on. It seems easier to do in straight 8th grooves than swing for me, but I'm not exactly sure why that is.