Charlie Haden on William Parker

[godoze]

I live here and have never heard it...

I'm not a fan of his bass or his playing. With Ornette or anyone else. I think Ornette used him in the first place because of his "anti-technique" approach. After all it was Coleman that decided he could play any instrument he wanted on stage and that the music had less to do with ability than with whatever sonic stew the band happened to be cookin' that night.

[RickC]

Philly, Detroit, what's the difference...

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by jaydbass

My wife, for example, overheard this @ one of my recent (sideman) gigs - "Another bass solo! I don't mind the odd one - but there's no need to treat him as one of the band.."Classic or what?

Jeez...was it a rock gig? Be honest -- we won't tell anyone.

[Jeremy Allen]

Reminds me of Philip Larkin in his collection of jazz criticism "All What Jazz?" (a great book, excellent writing, even considering I disagree with most of his opinions...) when he comments on a record that has a bass solo on every tune and he says something like "What, is this a new union rule or something that there has to be a bass solo on every tune? Ridiculous."

On Charlie: my mentor Bob Brookmeyer told me on more than one occasion that his idea of Hell is "three hours of Charlie Haden bass solos." I guess I can agree with that (but, hey, substitute my own name and you've got an even lower circle of hell)...but my idea of Heaven also includes a whole lot of Charlie-Haden-as-accompanist in it. His playing on the Ornette stuff, with such an earthy, chthonian (look it up, but it's kind of like "earthy" anyway) sound where the bass is coming out of of the roots and the mud, is great. Which is why I don't see how he couldn't dig William Parker--Parker is the ultimate "chthonic" bassist! But there's no accounting for taste.

[Aaron Saunders]

Okay, so I don't get this. Now, the only Haden I've heard is Land of the Sun, which isn't exactly fully of bebop heads and tearing bass solos, so I've never heard Haden out of the mood music context.

So does he actually have a specific *lack* of technique? Are his solos really that bad? Does his arco blow as much as this topic (and others) seem to insinuate?

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

So does he actually have a specific *lack* of technique? Are his solos really that bad? Does his arco blow as much as this topic (and others) seem to insinuate?

Haden has a *lack* of technique in the way that, um, say, John Pattituci or Brian Bromberg have an excess of technique, see where I'm goin? Lots of people dig those guys, personally I don't like them. Different strokes, etc.

True, looking at Haden's hands makes me cringe, and he's not really an arco player. I think his solos are great. He's got good intonation, and a very melodic, spacious, approach. "Earthy" is right on the money. The guy always sounds like himself. That means he plays a lot of the same stuff all the time, just as everyone else plays/ played a lot of the same stuff all the time - William Parker, Charlie Parker, uh ... Evan Parker, everyone. You want to check out a classic Haden solo, go to the first Liberation Music Orchestra album or Ornette's "Science Fiction," decide for yourself.

Put it another way - I saw Elvin Jones in the 90s, and a really good, very "technical" drummer who was at the show with me said, "Man! Elvin has no technique!" Which was so ludicrous that my head almost fell off.

Originally Posted by DZ

I think Ornette used him in the first place because of his "anti-technique" approach. After all it was Coleman that decided he could play any instrument he wanted on stage and that the music had less to do with ability than with whatever sonic stew the band happened to be cookin' that night.

Ornette's "anti-technique" thing was always arguably a put-on - after all, he played R&B tenor and lifted Charlie Parker on the alto before he sounded like himself. Anyway the ability to create 'sonic stew' is still a musical ability. If you look at the bios on the 'free' guys, then or now, turns out many of them are highly trained and could play anything.

Oh, and another thing - whatever one may think of Haden's politics, I think you have to consider the following. It's a difficult and problematic thing to try and connect music and politics. Why? Because even 'political' music has to above all work as music. So as the musician, hopefully you don't want to be yelling slogans or propaganda at people, or dumbing down the thing you're trying to represent or connect to. Also because "you," the musician, hopefully don't want it to be about how great you are (see Liberation Music discussion earlier in this thread).

Maybe Haden's projects succeed on this level, maybe they don't; that's, again, different strokes. But consider that the man has the cojones to say what he thinks; _that's_ the point.

Ooh! Ahh! What th - ! Isn't that what got this thread started in the first place? Now isn't that interesting.

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Jeez...was it a rock gig? Be honest -- we won't tell anyone.

Actually, it was a local jazz club!!! The gig was the club's house trio plus guest guitarist. The club is a kinda small-scale affair in a small town hotel & is always busy with local & travelling fans. What made it more amusing was that the quote came from 2 old guys sitting in the corner like Statler & Waldorf! I'm hoping to post some stuff I recorded with this trio soon (if I can figure out how to do it!?!), so hopefully I can get a more, erm, balanced critique!!!!

[TroyK]

I'm really, really, really sorry not to let this thread die, but I just got back from a vacation and used the plane ride to catch up on my old Downbeat backlog.

There is an interview in the July 2005 Downbeat with Ron Carter, William Parker, Scott Colley and Larry Gredadier. In it, William Parker in response to "How were you Drawn to play the bass?" says he had been playing cello, but had bought a bass and "I met Charlie Haden who told me to play along with records".

An insignicant comment, but obviously they met and it was significant to William Parker. I'm sure it hurt him to read mr. Haden's comments on his playing and his statement the he had never heard of him

Again, sorry, this post has gone too long, but I read that, thought of our conversation and just thought I would point it out.

-tk

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by keykendrick

In it, William Parker in response to "How were you Drawn to play the bass?" says he had been playing cello, but had bought a bass and "I met Charlie Haden who told me to play along with records".

An insignicant comment, but obviously they met and it was significant to William Parker. I'm sure it hurt him to read mr. Haden's comments on his playing and his statement the he had never heard of him
-tk

I've met a few famous players too but if you ask them about me they would respond that they had never heard of me. Unless Mr. Parker was already a known player at the time of the meeting I don't see why Charlie Haden would remember the encounter.

[Futurebass]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

yeah, but Kenny G. sucks.

Kenny G. sucks? Maybe, but consider, he's the world's most popular instrumentalist.

Just getting people to listen to music that doesn't feature that atrocity known as lyrics is a major accomplishment.

[anonymous0726]

Originally Posted by Futurebass

Kenny G. sucks? Maybe, but consider, he's the world's most popular instrumentalist.

Just getting people to listen to music that doesn't feature that atrocity known as lyrics is a major accomplishment.

So, in short, you'd jump offa the bridge?

[grunlohd]

Let's also remember that Charlie has a seriously painful form of tinnitus, so certain frequencies will literally hurt him... With that in mind, it's not so hard to see him asking somebody to turn certain records down, or off. It may not be that he objects to the sounds as a player, but that his body objects to the sounds, because of the unfortunate condition of his hearing's limitations. It might be a medical thing, and not just a personal bias.

[Mike Crumpton]

hmmmn - I'll remember that excuse when the scrote accross the road starts regaling my narrow street with full-on punk-regae again! :-)

[Eric Jackson]

Originally Posted by Futurebass

...that atrocity known as lyrics...

The Gershwins, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, any of those names ring a bell? Did they all write atrocities?
Eminem, maybe...

[Futurebass]

Originally Posted by Eric Jackson

The Gershwins, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, any of those names ring a bell? Did they all write atrocities?
Eminem, maybe...

Of course I was exaggerating, and I like a lot of vocal music. I'm just saying if Kenny G. can get people to accept instrumental music, more power to him.

[anonymous0726]

Of course, you are assuming both 'instrumental' and 'music'.

And you know the old adage about assumptions...

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Futurebass

Of course I was exaggerating, and I like a lot of vocal music. I'm just saying if Kenny G. can get people to accept instrumental music, more power to him.

IMHO...Nonsense. KG. getting people to listen to 'instrumental music' is, IMO, just confusing people by calling whatever that **** he plays JAZZ.
Also I totally disagree with your negative comments about lyrics.....Many great players, including some of our resident players agree that learning the lyrics to american standard tunes is helpful in learning the tunes, period.
Truly an art form in itself.
Also, if you want to be taken seriously, may I suggest filling out your profile?

[teleharmonium]

Futurebass wrote: "Kenny G. sucks? Maybe, but consider, he's the world's most popular instrumentalist. "

I thought it was Zamfir ? Whatever. The only way to know for sure is via deathmatch.

Freddels wrote: "Unless Mr. Parker was already a known player at the time of the meeting I don't see why Charlie Haden would remember the encounter."

right, and since Parker was not yet playing bass it would have been late 60s, early 70s. Haden probably has brief conversations like that with other bass players several times per week and that was at least 30 years ago.

[Aaron Saunders]

You know, I found myself doing something kind of curious today. I was in the Sam the Record Man jazz section in Toronto -- huge with GREAT selection, by the by -- and found myself glance at Haden's section and completely skip over it. I found myself leaving with a Bird recording simply because I needed more bop, but for some reason, what I've heard of his playing, combined with his apparent personalty (I'll explain more) just didn't excite me at all, whereas I spent about 10 minutes himming and hawing between Charlie Parker, Bill Evans (they had Explorations AND Portait in Jazz,) and Ron Carter before finally picking the Parker record.

As for the Haden personality thing -- I heard some interesting stories on the weekend at jazz camp.

Kieran Overs (Toronto bassist, incredible player) is a friend of Steve Colley, who used to study with Haden and a principal symphony fella. According to Colley, studying with the principal player in the symphony was a very educational and elightening experience...and studyin with Charlie Haden equated to going for coffee and talking about Charlie Haden.
There were also a couple other (rather amusing) shots against Haden over the weekend from a number of bassists. Seems his personality's come through a few more times than on this Downbeat article.

Oh well. The last time I heard Haden was at a party -- I don't drink and found myself rather enamoured with the host's father's CD collection rather than the schnapps and vodka. I'm not entirely sure, but I think "Land of the Sun" served as mood music at more than one point that night.