E. Spalding overrated?

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by cnltb

won't need to hear from her for a while I recon.

I kindly recon she ain't gonna lose alotta sleep over that ****.

[Baswithone"s"]

Am I the only one who liked her last two albums? They seem pretty solid to me - technically, creatively, and compositionally. I'm not always in the mood for them, but I'm not always in the mood for Evan Parker/Barry Guy duets, Bach, or "Kind of Blue" either. It's a big and varied world. Just make your music.

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I recon she ain't gonna lose alotta sleep over that ****.

Of course she won't.
Why would she?
She's busy playing whilst we are busy here on tb.
Good on her!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I don't own any of her albums, But I've always been impressed with her talent and performance level every single time I've heard her perform. I don't really care what she chooses to do with the combination of talent and hard work that has brought her to the point where she currently. She's earned the right to do whatever she wants with it, and I think she should do just that. I like to think I would do the same.

And the rest of this is just my opinion, BUT: the whole notion of the "sellout" artist immediately brings the word "copout" to my mind, but applied to the critic rather than the artist in question. To me, music is simply music, and styles and genres are just artificial lines drawn across the landscape. Just this week, I saw the Punch brothers (basically bluegrass meets virtuosity) play a beautiful and amazing show on Tuesday, saw the Jeff Coffin Mu'tet on Wednesday, played a "let's mix jazz standards with a 'free jazz' approach" trio gig on Wednesday night, then watched a documentary on the making of the "Goat Rodeo sessions" CD last night before going to bed. To me, "good music" is "good music", and the only distinction to be made among it is "good music that I relate to and therefore go out of my way to expose myself to" versus "I don't really dig that, but I have to admit it's well done and props to those who did it".

I currently play in an indie soul/jazz/folk/jam/pop group peopled with some of the greatest musicians i know. We're releasing an album in the next few months, and if it were to take off and keep us all busy touring and playing that kind of music for a while because it was what was happening at the time, we'd all be totally fine with it. If somebody at that point were to comment on a goodly number of the local scene's prominent jazz talent "selling out and forsaking jazz", we'd laugh, roll our eyes, and say "get while the getting's good" and go right on with it. I personally kind of hope that happens, because I'm excited about the music and I believe wholeheartedly in it. If anyone doesn't like it, they should simply not listen to it.

[mjac28]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

Her music does nothing for me so I never bought any of her CD.

From what I see and understand of what said in the OP, it looks like many other "jazz" artist. Those artist playing very close to what would be considered "jazz pop" or straight pop music. We saw the same thing happened to Norah Jones.

I have a hard time believing an artist would change their style of music just to make more money or because they have listened to a producer who want to make a pop star with a lot of money and if it isn't her it will be someone else. If it is the case a lot of people are sell out and doesn't care at all about music as an art form ... they only sees it as a mean to an end which is sad and disgust me. If it is the artist who want that and no one else tell them what to do ... then ok ... boring but ok it is her choice.

Good for you that desicion will never have to enter your brain you will never ever be on that level and you will never be put in that position.

[mjac28]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

This doesn't mean her music is nice to listen to or that she has interesting ideas. It justs mean she is good at music.

Also if the only good things you have to say about her is : "she's energetic, beautiful and has an awesome 'fro." 2 of the 3 mentionned are about her look ... then she is only that, a beautiful girl that has nothing else to offert and she is marketed as such ...

But she would still bury you on stage and I can't wait to hear your awesome music not liking her music is one thing but your nasty comments reduce you to the typical jealous Internet troll and I'm still waiting for a link to your incredible music I know you could be just as famous if you could only get a break right?

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Try not to confuse talent with corporate obligations, what she records and releases may not what she wants, but the music industry does not always cater for the artists talent...it caters for what sells....whether the artist agrees with it or not.

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

From what I see and understand of what said in the OP, it looks like many other "jazz" artist. Those artist playing very close to what would be considered "jazz pop" or straight pop music. We saw the same thing happened to Norah Jones.

I have a hard time believing an artist would change their style of music just to make more money or because they have listened to a producer who want to make a pop star with a lot of money and if it isn't her it will be someone else. If it is the case a lot of people are sell out and doesn't care at all about music as an art form ... they only sees it as a mean to an end which is sad and disgust me. If it is the artist who want that and no one else tell them what to do ... then ok ... boring but ok it is her choice.

Norah Jones used to be listed on the jazz charts until she started actually selling albums. Then - not for any stylistic reasons - they switched her to the pop charts. I sometimes feel the jazz world has gotten so into its being this niche market that they think that if regular people get the music, it must not really be jazz. I find that sad. I don't see any reason to assume that Spalding is "selling out" and playing music some record producer wants and not what she likes playing. That, I agree, is a critic's cop-out. It's not like she's playing four-chord disco beats and flouncing around with her cleavage hanging out. Radio Music Society may be more accessible, but it's still clearly HER.

Originally Posted by Etienned

The Black Gold videoclip from last year's month of Black History made me stop listening to her. I know it's silly to skip on a artist for so little but I teach History and I always try to include as much informations and activities concerning 'popular' History (women, immigration, minorities, prisoners, etc).

The whole "they teach nothing about us in school" record seems to me like an acid reflux from a few decades back and I'm sure that many teachers are entitled to more respect than being depicted with such a broad brush.

I felt the same way about that video but it didn't make me stop listening to the music. You have to remember that she's young and young people often go on crusades over issues they don't have much life perspective on yet. And at the end of the day, she IS trying to send a positive message to black families, even if she uses teachers as the foil to communicate it.

[Dimmik]

Originally Posted by cnltb

Over rated?
I don't know, but wouldn't say so.
Over exposed?
I think Yes.
I for one, appreciating what she does but not so much liking much of it, won't need to hear from her for a while I recon.

I'm afraid I agree with you. I'm debating whether I should write her off now or give her one more chance to straighten this crap out. But I don't have any faith that she will. It would be bizarre for her to keep crossing back and forth. She's cast her die and that's that. Crossing over is fine and dandy with me but it might have been a good idea to establish oneself as a solid jazz artist first. You can't do that in only two CDs. It was a bewildering thing for her to do. I can't waste anymore money on CDs I will never listen to again after the first hearing. I'll always respect those first two CDs, but it's hard to listen to them anymore because all I can hear is what might have been and should have been but almost certainly never will be now.

And to Mr. Warburton who seems to think his very utterances on TB should be regarded as coming from the god of bass--I am not a jazz critic. Nobody gives me these CDs to review. I spend hard-earned money to buy them. If I'm not satisfied with what I am getting for my money I have EVERY RIGHT to complain about it whether you approve of it or not. I'm sure if you bought a new car whose performance was not what you expected, you wouldn't appreciate the car company saying, "Oh, yeah, let's see YOU design car then, *******!" It's inappropriate response even when it comes from you.

[mjac28]

I'm out of here I'm sick of people bashing artists who have worked their arses off especially women to get where they are in their careers be constructive with your criticism and calling her a sellout when you have "zero" personal knowledge of her or her music ideas and the direction she wants her career to go and trying to promote popular Jazz music to young people who are bombarded with pop music can't be that bad?

[atomicdog]

I doubt that anyone is arguing that Esperanza is a killer bass player, though she is quite good. She has other strengths; frankly, she could have ditched the bass and still had a strong career as a singer, so let's give her some credit. She's a proficient songwriter, in some instance quite good, a good singer, she has the good sense to work with folks like arranger Gil Goldstein, she has a great band, she's drop-dead gorgeous and quite engaging (I've had the opportunity to interview her and hang out around her at the Monterey Jazz Fest--she had to disguise herself just to be able to walk through the fairgrounds because she has attained rock star status). She's a very compelling package, sort to speak. As an artist who is inspiring other young artists, she's in the forefront. And as others have pointed out, she's helped to keep jazz in the spotlight, for which many of us are grateful. And that's a great thing. Let's cut the sister a break, fer chrissakes.

[Dimmik]

"frankly, she could have ditched the bass and still had a strong career as a singer,"

That's pretty much what she's done.

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by Dimmik

I'm afraid I agree with you. I'm debating whether I should write her off now or give her one more chance to straighten this crap out. But I don't have any faith that she will. It would be bizarre for her to keep crossing back and forth. She's cast her die and that's that. Crossing over is fine and dandy with me but it might have been a good idea to establish oneself as a solid jazz artist first. You can't do that in only two CDs. It was a bewildering thing for her to do. I can't waste anymore money on CDs I will never listen to again after the first hearing. I'll always respect those first two CDs, but it's hard to listen to them anymore because all I can hear is what might have been and should have been but almost certainly never will be now.

And to Mr. Warburton who seems to think his very utterances on TB should be regarded as coming from the god of bass--I am not a jazz critic. Nobody gives me these CDs to review. I spend hard-earned money to buy them. If I'm not satisfied with what I am getting for my money I have EVERY RIGHT to complain about it whether you approve of it or not. I'm sure if you bought a new car whose performance was not what you expected, you wouldn't appreciate the car company saying, "Oh, yeah, let's see YOU design car then, *******!" It's inappropriate response even when it comes from you.

I don't think I am 'writing her off'.
She may come out with something at some point, that interests me again.

As to Mr Warburton:
He, just like everyone else here is perfectly entitled to voice opinions, no more no less.
His word has no more or less gravitas than yours for example or anyone else's.
Not to me anyways since I have no clue who he is.

[damonsmith]

Most of Paul Chambers line could be played by anyone with two years of decent instruction as well - they key difference in that only Paul Chambers is Paul Chambers.
Is she over-rated? No, she is a great musician and bassist.
Is she making crass, over-comercial albums and compromising her bass playing for money? Yes.
To play devil's advocate with myself, I have no idea whether I would sell out in exactly the same way because nobody is buying.
She came on the scene doing the vocal thing, so it isn't like she has a long jazz career she is blowing off.

If you want slightly better than usual pop music with some well played double bass, she is your lady.
If you want great double bass playing, buy a David Holland album.

[Roy Vogt]

I saw the Radio Music Society Tour in Nashville and she was killin'! At one point she sang great while playing a smoking line underneath and then proceeded to take a killer solo. When you consider her age and the road she has ahead of her I expect great things from this very talented young lady.
At various times, people have likely called Stanley Clarke, Scott LaFaro, Eddie Gomez and John Pattitucci "overrated" as young players. With the tragic exception of Scott, they all grew into their shoes quite nicely. I think Esperanza will as well.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by mjac28

I also love the fact that people keep focusing on her looks I would tend to believe she could run circles around at [least] half the people on this forum,

Probably around both halves.

[powerbass]

+1

Originally Posted by KUNGfuSHERIFF

Hey PDubs, who was it that wrote that song "If Charlie Parker Was a Gunfighter, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats?" Was that Mingus? Seems to me that the sentiment applies in this instance.

My last word on the subject is this: I'm no fanboy, but from the little I know about Ms. Spalding, compared to her peers I'd be comfortable holding her up as a role model for my daughter -- a talented and successful young woman of color finding her way in the world through a mean, ugly industry but who manages to carry herself as a lady. That's cool, anyone's opinion on her latest artistic tangent aside.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by mjac28

But she would still bury you on stage and I can't wait to hear your awesome music not liking her music is one thing but your nasty comments reduce you to the typical jealous Internet troll and I'm still waiting for a link to your incredible music I know you could be just as famous if you could only get a break right?

Sure she's better than me on bass, I'm quite sure of that, I don't have her level of studies nor the desire to go to berklee etc etc etc.

But seriously, having studies at berklee doesn't mean you compose great music. The playing will be of course good, the arrangement too and there will be some intreguing stuff. It still doesn't mean it is good music. Simple as that.

I know people who could make you cry for the sheer beauty of their playing while they perform some classical music. Can they compose a song ? Not really, they don't have the creativity for that, but they sure can play very complex, hard music which need a lot of years of studies.

Get it now ? Perfect execution doesn't equal good inspiring music. Want proof ? All pop music like Lady Gaga is so well executed and perfectly mixed and polished ... her music doesn't move me at all.

[Roy Vogt]

I'm going to see her with the Wayne Shorter Quartet (with Pattitucci on bass) and The Nashville Symphony in April. It will be interesting to see who does what when....

[MR PC]

Overated? No.
Over recorded/produced? Yes.
Are the compositions interesting? Not really.
Could that change? Yes.
Is she moving to fast? Probably.
IMHO

[Dimmik]

Originally Posted by cnltb

I don't think I am 'writing her off'.
She may come out with something at some point, that interests me again.

Sure but I'm not going to keep buying her CDs hoping she will get it right. I work hard for my money.

As to Mr Warburton:
He, just like everyone else here is perfectly entitled to voice opinions, no more no less.
His word has no more or less gravitas than yours for example or anyone else's.
Not to me anyways since I have no clue who he is.

I despise it when someone says I'm supposed to automatically like whatever someone does if that person is more talented than me. And if I don't like it, I have no right to complain. What kind of crap is that? I'll tell you what kind of crap it is, it's called "cult of personality." Well, to cop a quote--"Homey, don't play that!"