I saw Larry Grenadier this weekend

[Alex Spradling]

maybe some of you will find this interesting.

At the end of the first set Brad talked for a little bit about each song he played, when he got to the oasis tune he said...."better melody than lyrics on that one...(pause) (everyone laughs)...odd syntax, i still have no idea what its about."

[Mike Crumpton]

Originally Posted by Alex Spradling

maybe some of you will find this interesting.

At the end of the first set Brad talked for a little bit about each song he played, when he got to the oasis tune he said...."better melody than lyrics on that one...(pause) (everyone laughs)...odd syntax, i still have no idea what its about."

Oh its footballing metaphor - that's football UK meaning soccer to you in the US:

Because maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after all
You're my wonderwall

Its a bit crummy really - but when there is a direct free kick close to goal, the team that it's awarded against make a 'wall' of players that hopefully 'saves' the ball form gong in - assuming the goalkeeper is caught napping as well of course - so Liam (Gallaher - the lead singer) is whining that his paramour is going to be a wonder version of half a dozen over-paid preening pansies stood in a line - but then again it would make more sense if he was talking American soccer which I understand is largely a women's game.

[Clay_Bass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

- I don't. I really hate that trend, whether from Brad, Bad Plus or Mats Gustafson's (otherwise one of my favorite saxophonists) The Thing.
I guess part of it is hating pop music in the first place.....

So what do think that on green dolphin street, i got rythm, etc were before they got put into the real book? Oh yeah they were pop tunes with baisic chord changes.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Clay_Bass

So what do think that on green dolphin street, i got rythm, etc were before they got put into the real book? Oh yeah they were pop tunes with baisic chord changes.

I personally feel that is the single least interesting part of the jazz tradition, not that I don't enjoy some of the greats playing tunes.
For me things get much more interesting once jazz developed it's own
repertoire.
Also, pop music was of a much better quality back then. Cole Porter and Gershwin cannot be compared any of the garbage on pop radio now.
Another important part of my point of view is that we no longer need any marterial to play together in the post free jazz/free improvisation period. For me that means any pre-composed material needs to be compelling and most of all: somehow necessary.

Also, while Brad and friends are certainly good players Sonny Rollins/Wilbur Ware/Elvin jones they are not.
Maybe that trio or the Lee Konitz/Red Mitchell duo playing Oasis would be cool.

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I personally feel that is the single least interesting part of the jazz tradition, not that I don't enjoy some of the greats playing tunes.
For me things get much more interesting once jazz developed it's own
repertoire.
Also, pop music was of much better quality back then. Cole Porter and Gershwin cannot be compared any of the garbage on pop radio now.

Also, while Brad and friends are certainly good players Sonny Rollins/Wilbur Ware/Elvin jones they are not.
Maybe that trio playing Oasis would be cool.

Comparing jazz musicians is pretty much impossible. Brad is a pianist not a great sax player (rollins) , a great bassist (ware) , or a great drummer (jones) . We're bassists.... i enjoyed Larry Grenadier's bass line that's all that was said.

The Oasis cover was cool, they guys had a deep pocket, and it was a fun song. It was a nice relief from some of Brad's super heavy soloistic, contrapuntal improvisation (which is all amazing). The song fit his set perfectly. You can tell he was kind of laughing about the idea of doing that song as he played it. The whole trio grinned when he started playing the melody. What's jazz without a sense of humor?

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Alex Spradling

What's jazz without a sense of humor?

- Good music. I don't listen to music for humor, I go to
http://www.homestarrunner.com
Remember, I am just presenting an argument/opinon - it does not mean I am right or that you are not allowed to enjoy it.

[lowendforlife]

I think we have the makings of an interesting discussion here. The covering-pop-tunes trend has definitely come alive of late. I too saw Mehldau's trio during his recent Vanguard stint, and it was nothing short of beautiful music. They didn't play the Oasis tune at the set I attended, but I'm sure Mehldau gave it a great treatment. We can't discount Brad as an innovator. Perhaps he hasn't yet achieved the indellible status of a "Sonny Rollins," but IMHO he's heading there.

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

- Good music. I don't listen to music for humor, I go to
http://www.homestarrunner.com
Remember, I am just presenting an argument/opinon - it does not mean I am right or that you are not allowed to enjoy it.

man,

the presupposition there is that music with a sense of humor equates to bad music. That's like saying jokes are the opposite of seriousness (they're not, for the record). Jazz has tons of subtle humor in it, quoting another song during your solo can be interesting and usually, kinda silly and fun. An example: quoting something from Speak no Evil in a chorus of Prince of Darkness...they're both Shorter tunes, and they both have seemingly contradictory titles. I think that's kind of thoughtful and funny. It would still be musical, and there's just a little sense of subtle humor and play there.

Had mehldau not played the head to an Oasis song and just some weird angular melody but retained the same changes, i really doubt people would be flaming him...does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

[Michael Case]

You shouldn't make money playing music, you shouldn't compose music, you shouldn't play music people might like. Music is meant for you to play and feel better than the rest of the world. The only people who should be interested in your music are people who want to feel better than everyone else.

Opinions are like A$$H)%^$

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Alex Spradling

the presupposition there is that music with a sense of humor equates to bad music. That's like saying jokes are the opposite of seriousness (they're not, for the record).

Or, to quote the Firesign Theater;

"Next time, we will look at gravity, and its opposite, comedy."

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Johono5

I know that this discussion has been held elsewhere on this forum at length, concerning the same group and with some of the same principals. If I had the link, I would post it for people to read, and I don't mean to get it going again.

Link.

Originally Posted by BLOOMINGTON FIVE-OH

] But I must ask: how does covering an old and admittedly crappy pop tune actually translate into more dollars for anyone (Brad Mehldau, Herbie, Iverson and Co.)? It's not as if a bunch of teenagers walking down Seventh Avenue will recognize the strains of an Oasis tune coming through the "minor blues with altered changes" and run down into the club, paying admission and ordering a Mehldau CD from Amazon.com on their Blackberry at the same time. I would think more jazz fans would seek out the originals of the tune than fans of the originals would seek out the jazz versions; I know that's often the case for me with these things (I was introduced to a lot of interesting pop music via Herbie's "The New Standard," stuff I would never have listened to because at the time I was quite a pop music snob; I'm glad that happened, because a great song is a great song and I now admire people like Peter Gabriel and Paul Simon whom I never would have listened to in the past).

OK, I will admit that "The New Standard" was basically a marketing ploy considering that the whole album consists of covers and considering that Herbie has shown himself to have a nose for big profits. But the covers are thoughtful and well done; market appeal doesn't by definition equate to a lack of artistic quality, just as covering a pop song doesn't by definition equate to high market appeal. (There are plenty of hilariously bad, low-selling pop cover albums by good jazz musicians from the 1960s to prove that.)

I agree.

Whatever anybody else thinks, I like this trend in jazz, and hope it continues for several reasons:

1) I like a lot of pop tunes, and as a child of a later generation than the jazz greats, a lot of pop music speaks to me in a way that the jazz standard repertoire never could...because I was born too late to listen to those songs as the "soundtrack of my life" growing up.

2) Jazz has always adapted pop tunes for repertoire. I don't recall the OFFICIAL JAZZ MANUAL listing an absolute cutoff date outlawing tunes past a certain period. If a tune speaks to an artist for whatever reason, he/she should feel free to use it as a jumping off point as far as I'm concerned.

3) When I go to a show where some "New Standard" type of material is being played, I'm always interested to see what the group will do with it...like many other members of the audience. There's a lot to be said for playing music that has a intimate association with the artist and the audience, and the farther we get from Tin Pan Alley, the more distant that thread becomes in the audience. I remember when I was first learning to play "jazz", I only knew many jazz standards as "those tunes that jazz musicians played all that crazy **** over", and was ignorant of the original context of the tunes, the lyrics, etc. Now, years later, the meaning of those same tunes has grown exponentially as these blanks have been filled in. Even when the lyrics turned out to be kind of stupid (Polkadots, etc.), the meaning of them adds something in a vague kind of way.

4) Last, and most important: it ain't the vehicle, it's where you drive it.

All IMO, of course.

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Link.


4) Last, and most important: it ain't the vehicle, it's where you drive it.

that's a good metaphor for what i was trying to say when i said "i really doubt brad would get blasted the way he does if he didn't play the melody to an oasis song"

The trio took the song in a great, fun direction, it was jazz in every sense.

By the way Chris, i checked out your webpage and I really dig your playing. Beautiful, lyrical...just awesome.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

If a tune speaks to an artist for whatever reason, he/she should feel free to use it as a jumping off point as far as I'm concerned.

- I agree, and this is exactly what question in most of these cases. Does the Oasis tune REALLY speak to these musicians?

[Anonymous75966]

I wouldn't call the covers thing a "trend," because I'd agree with the folks that say it's part of the history of jazz. But then commercialism and marketing is part of the history of jazz too: CTI, Norman Granz, etc., etc. As distinct from improvised music, Damon, which you'll probably agree has always had a sort of dialectic of resistance in it.

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I agree, and this is exactly what question in most of these cases. Does the Oasis tune REALLY speak to these musicians?

I always thought Oasis was a crap band, but I find that song annoyingly catchy for reasons which I can't explain. Maybe they were trying to get it worked out of their head?

Personally, I've had a few free jazz projects that played a lot of "covers" - 80s tunes, Black Flag, Hanns Eisler, and so on. I don't have much desire to go back to playing punk rock (at least while sober), so writing a really tweaked arrangement of "My War" is my way of giving props to some of my favourite, formative music.

What Mehldau et al really think is probably not knowable by us.

[bassdogEmer]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Also, while Brad and friends are certainly good players Sonny Rollins/Wilbur Ware/Elvin jones they are not.

wow.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Dave Chokroun

I wouldn't call the covers thing a "trend," because I'd agree with the folks that say it's part of the history of jazz. But then commercialism and marketing is part of the history of jazz too: CTI, Norman Granz, etc., etc. As distinct from improvised music, Damon, which you'll probably agree has always had a sort of dialectic of resistance in it.



I always thought Oasis was a crap band, but I find that song annoyingly catchy for reasons which I can't explain. Maybe they were trying to get it worked out of their head?

Personally, I've had a few free jazz projects that played a lot of "covers" - 80s tunes, Black Flag, Hanns Eisler, and so on. I don't have much desire to go back to playing punk rock (at least while sober), so writing a really tweaked arrangement of "My War" is my way of giving props to some of my favourite, formative music.

What Mehldau et al really think is probably not knowable by us.

- I will admit to playing "do you want new wave or do you want the truth" by the minutemen in my early solo shows.
I have to say it was after a project with a double bass quartet + Mike Watt on BG doing minutemen material.

[Clay_Bass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Also, pop music was of a much better quality back then. Cole Porter and Gershwin cannot be compared any of the garbage on pop radio now.

I read an interview in jazztimes I think a little while ago with sarah vaguhn about this issue. She and many others pretty much said the opposite. Those songs werent written with those changes to them. The jazzers took them and dressed them up just like brad is doing with the oasis song.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Was anybody else who hangs out here at the 12/1 Mehldau trio concert at SUNY Purchase? Wow. I've been pretty depressed about the future of jazz, but that trio gave me some hope. All three musicians were excellent (of course), but for me it was the interplay and uniqueness that really impressed me.