Miroslav Vitous on youtube

[damonsmith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Jq2uavA9E

There are a few others with Garbarek..

[Aaron Saunders]

Can't wait to check this out...what a player. It's a shame I can't find that video posted on the BG side a while ago -- it was Vitous playing with Jeff Berlin's trio. Really amazing stuff.

[musicman5string]

I never knew Miroslav recorded with Eddie Van Halen...

Serioulsy though, I think that's the first I've seen or heard of Miroslav bowing; it's no surprise it's fantastic.

[Damon Rondeau]

A friend of mine is into acquiring live concert recordings off the net. A week ago he laid on me a couple of CDs of Miroslav playing a concert in Malmo, Sweden, earlier this year. Great, great stuff.

I heard a bunch of Jaco in his playing. Which way does the influence run there, I wonder?

[bruce malcolm]

check out the "trio" dvd with rypdal & gurtu in stuttgart 1994 for creative arco (& pizz) by miro.

also the chick corea "now he sings,now he sobs" trio dvd in 2001, all fantastic pizz. what strings is miro using on this dvd? to me, they look like black nylons (labella 7710) & not the chrome (labella 7720) that i've read in these forum's.
i've emailed miro...but haven't heard yet.

[bruce malcolm]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

A friend of mine is into acquiring live concert recordings off the net. A week ago he laid on me a couple of CDs of Miroslav playing a concert in Malmo, Sweden, earlier this year. Great, great stuff.

I heard a bunch of Jaco in his playing. Which way does the influence run there, I wonder?

vitous is 5 years older than jaco & studied @ prague conservatory as a teenager, before attending berklee, which he has commented was over-rated.
i agree, there are some isolated & surprising moments of brillance & similarity, but imo...it's purely coincidental. they are each a product of their environments & their personalities quite different...miro was influenced by lafaro & took it to the next level on dblbass & jaco revolutionized electric bass.

[fraublugher]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Can't wait to check this out...what a player. It's a shame I can't find that video posted on the BG side a while ago -- it was Vitous playing with Jeff Berlin's trio. Really amazing stuff.

here ya go

http://www.kwmusica.kataweb.it/kwmus...dCategory=2028

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by bruce malcolm

vitous is 5 years older than jaco & studied @ prague conservatory as a teenager, before attending berklee, which he has commented was over-rated.
i agree, there are some isolated & surprising moments of brillance & similarity, but imo...it's purely coincidental. they are each a product of their environments & their personalities quite different...miro was influenced by lafaro & took it to the next level on dblbass & jaco revolutionized electric bass.

I can see where studying with Posta:
Frantisek Posta
Could make Berkelee seem over-rated....

[Aaron Saunders]

That's, fraublugher.

As far as the Jaco influence, seeing as they were contemporaries and both played in the same group at different times (Weather Report) I'd be willing to bet they influenced each other significantly, even if unconcious of it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

That's, fraublugher.

As far as the Jaco influence, seeing as they were contemporaries and both played in the same group at different times (Weather Report) I'd be willing to bet they influenced each other significantly, even if unconcious of it.

Yes - and there's the fact that Joe Zawinul was always the dominating influence in the group - main composer and arranger - Jaco really looked up to him as a kind of "Father figure" - so what some people may hear as a Jaco-type sound is actually a Zawinul sound/idea, that Jaco played in Weather Report and incorporated in his playing...?

[Throckmorten]

What ever the relationship with Jaco might have been, Zawinul pretty well dis'd Vitous in his memior a few years ago, basically saying "too many notes, Mozart ..."

Maybe too much head and not enough gut for old Joe?
Whatever.

I love his work on ECM. The stuff he did with Rypdal and DeJohnette ranks as some of the most intelligent fusion of the era.

The last I heard from him as leader was Universal Syncopations http://www.ecmrecords.com/Catalogue/...=0&lvredir=712

maybe a bit over produced, but darn good jazz in any case.

I hope I'm not passing along disinformation here but some time ago I heard that Miroslav began taking sound samples from halls and cathedrels all over Europe and built up quite a unique library which he has been able to cash in on rather well over the years.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Damon

Which way does the Jaco influence run?

My favorite playing from Miroslav is Chick Corea's "Now He Sings Now He Sobs" from 1968. He had a fully-formed, identifiable voice at that point. That was a powerfully influential record . . .

Contrast Jaco on "Metheny/Pastorius/Ditmas/Bley" on Improvising Artists from 1974. Jaco plays nice but he's still not all the way there.

Regarding "Universal Syncopations," it's fake jazz: There's a five-piece band but never more than two guys in the studio at once. [Buzzer sound here.]

[Damon Rondeau]

Yeah, that record's not really happening, but what about "Bright Size Life"? Same year? Close, anyways.

That original Jaco/Miroslav comparison was the result of a flashing impression centred around a few notes. Haven't been back to check it out since.

[Aaron Saunders]

I was pretty sure Bright Size Life was a year later, same as Jaco's debut...I haven't heard the Metheny/Pastorius/Ditmas/Bley record, but I thought his debut and Bright Size Life were very, very happenin'.

EDIT: Although keeping in mind that was probably a year (give or take) between albums, that's a year when he and Metheny were *constantly* shedding together. I tend to think of that as being fairly similar to Monk and Trane's months together in 57 when both musicians (especially Trane, though) grew so much.

[bruce malcolm]

"universal syncopations" keeps growing on me, with it's refreshing variety of jazz, blues, folk & a fair dose of classical influences...i believe it's the comp "sunflower", that brings to mind stravinsky, bartok, ives...and other songs as well. i really dig this cd & think it's one of the best to come along in sometime.

"fake jazz"? from this master bassist & these 4 jazz giants? i hear you sam...but for many "solo" projects, this is how it is. because there were only 2 cats in the room doesn't minimize the originiality & creativity from the other 3 when they tracked. it's still spontaneous & very, very musical at the end.
jaco recorded his "word of mouth" pretty much the same way 20 plus years ago, a bunch of different cats...in different places.

i also don't believe there is a studied, documented or confirmed "influence" from miro on jaco or vice versa...due to their respective heritage, upbringing, musical education, etc.
their individual brilliance & sporadic similarities in bass lines is purely coincidental & chance. just 2 great bassists sometimes coming up with similar things...which isn't unusual. sam mentioned miro's mastery on corea's "now he sings" from 1968.
i don't think miro rushed out to buy jaco's stuff 4-5 years later to cop donna lee licks. miro was already there & beyond.

[Throckmorten]

"Fake jazz ...."

I should have know better than to mention Universal Syncopations.
OK fine, all the guys weren't in the studio at the same time, so it's fake music, sure, whatever.
Too bad you can't enjoy it.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by bruce malcolm

"fake jazz"? from this master bassist & these 4 jazz giants? i hear you sam...but for many "solo" projects, this is how it is.

In rock, pop and smooth jazz, no disagreement. In jazz, I don't think so. I hope not.

Originally Posted by Bruce Malcolm

because there were only 2 cats in the room doesn't minimize the originiality & creativity from the other 3 when they tracked. it's still spontaneous & very, very musical at the end.

We have to disagree. To my ear, Chick Corea and John McLaughlin -- two of the most supportive, interactive accompanists around -- both sound like they're playing with one lobe behind their back for the precise reason that they were not interacting with anyone in the moment. And no surprise: Miroslav said that he cut-and-pasted the record with ProTools.

Originally Posted by Throckmorten

OK fine, all the guys weren't in the studio at the same time, so it's fake music, sure, whatever. Too bad you can't enjoy it.

I enjoy it for what it is -- one of the finest composition demos I've heard. But I don't enjoy it for what it was sold as -- an interactive, in-the-moment jazz record.

- - -

Alright, gentlemen, it looks like we've arrived at "what is jazz?" which is one of the slipperiest slopes out there. To me, jazz is:

a) Music which focuses on improvisation
b) within or reacting to the jazz tradition and
c) in the moment

and I always add one more qualifyer:
d) that you think is jazz.

Because I always think you're right. If you think it's jazz, great, you win, argument done, it's jazz.

And yeah, all this stuff that looks like a bright line isn't . . . there's overdubs, old-fashioned razor-blade editing . . . I'm not blind to all of that . . . But even though the line is fuzzy, it's still there (wherever "there" may be for you). For me, by and large, if it's not in the moment, it's not jazz. And everybody acknowleges that Universal Syncopations, however well-written it may be, is definitely NOT in the moment.

[Throckmorten]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Alright, gentlemen, it looks like we've arrived at "what is jazz?" which is one of the slipperiest slopes out there. To me, jazz is:

a) Music which focuses on improvisation
b) within or reacting to the jazz tradition and
c) in the moment

and I always add one more qualifyer:
d) that you think is jazz.

Because I always think you're right. If you think it's jazz, great, you win, argument done, it's jazz.

And yeah, all this stuff that looks like a bright line isn't . . . there's overdubs, old-fashioned razor-blade editing . . . I'm not blind to all of that . . . But even though the line is fuzzy, it's still there (wherever "there" may be for you). For me, by and large, if it's not in the moment, it's not jazz. And everybody acknowleges that Universal Syncopations, however well-written it may be, is definitely NOT in the moment.

No argument, actually.
Yerrite, it's not in the moment.
Since most, if not all the recorded music we hear is as processed as Velveeta cheese, as Velveeta goes, I guess we agree, this is good cheese.

Does anyone remember that smart-alec quote from John Zorn about improvisation?
Something like: It takes to long to get it right.

Like most of those one liners it stops short of the truth. (as in: how good it is when it is right) But it's funny any way.

[damonsmith]

"Universal Syncopations" was a really boring cd, not enough bass playing for one thing. His earlier quartet lps with John Surman/Kenny Kirkland/Jon Christiansen were great as was the trio with Rypdal and Dejohnette.
The duo and trio cd with Garbarek were ok, but not as good as the stufff above.

[bruce malcolm]

referring to universal syncopations as a "refreshing variety of jazz, blues, folk & classical", and questioning the label "fake jazz", seem to be appropriate, because this cd is really not jazz...it's a variety of interesting, different & very good music (as i stated earlier), written, arranged & orchestrated by a master bassist & happens to be played by 5 premier musicians, who are definitely considered jazz musicians.

it's a wonderful thing when you think about it & i respect your opinions...but in many cases, i don't care about..."what is jazz" criteria or "who wins" or "how a cd is sold / marketed". if it's miro & these 4 other musicians, i will research & buy it, no matter how it's marketed, no matter how it's "labeled".