Scotty and Miles

Paul Warburton · #1 09-08-2006, 05:41 AM

I've been spending some time on that Scott LaFaro website.
There's an area in there where they intimate about the possibility of Scott, if he hadn't died, being Miles next bass player.
A friend of mine, who I trust told me that he was in a club in NY where Miles was playing (pre-Ron Carter) and Miles asked Scotty to play. Apparently Miles went all-out, hugging Scotty and saying that he would be the next worlds greatest bass player.
On the Scotty site, they show a greeting card that Miles sent Scott...A cartoon of a band of cool looking jazz musicians, without a bass player on the front. On the back Miles writes: Look no bass player. Your Buddy, Miles Davis.
When I spent my little month playing with Bill, he said a couple times, things that support this...although I couldn't pin him down on it, he never denied it.
I wonder, historically and more, musically what this would have meant? How would that band have sounded?
This has been haunting me lately.....
What do you all think?

gomez hacienda · #2 09-08-2006, 06:24 AM

It's hard to imagine on one hand, because when Ron, Tony & Herbie came on board a few years later, their sound was not one I could imagine just plugging Scott into. It would have been very interesting to hear what Miles might have done had Scott been in the group. Paul Chambers was certainly a great player, but in no way did Miles have to adapt to his style. PC was such a great fundamental bassist. The question is...was Miles really looking to develop in a new way, and did he see Scott as a catalyst to move in that direction?

Paul Warburton · #3 09-08-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomez hacienda

It's hard to imagine on one hand, because when Ron, Tony & Herbie came on board a few years later, their sound was not one I could imagine just plugging Scott into. It would have been very interesting to hear what Miles might have done had Scott been in the group. Paul Chambers was certainly a great player, but in no way did Miles have to adapt to his style. PC was such a great fundamental bassist. The question is...was Miles really looking to develop in a new way, and did he see Scott as a catalyst to move in that direction?

Excellent point...you could also fantasize about the possibility of Miles bringing Bill back into the fold. What, then would happen to the whole mix in terms of Miles selecting a drummer to go with Bill and Scott. It could have gone in some very interesting ways....hire a drummer that would have gone in to the direction of Bill and Scotts 'interplay' concept OR more in the direction of the next Miles band of Herbie, Ron and Tony. Some of those black market tapes out now can give you an idea of how the section of Bill, Scott and Philly Joe sound. I know many people question Scott's ability as a time player or as we say. a cooker. Another thing people seem to love to harp about is Scotts inability to be heard...I think that's nonsense. IMO, Scott had the power within to do whatever it took to take care of business. Some of the things that Bill said to me personally about Scott were, to me, as if he were talking about almost a mystical power.

Paul Warburton · #4 09-08-2006, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomez hacienda

It's hard to imagine on one hand, because when Ron, Tony & Herbie came on board a few years later, their sound was not one I could imagine just plugging Scott into. It would have been very interesting to hear what Miles might have done had Scott been in the group. Paul Chambers was certainly a great player, but in no way did Miles have to adapt to his style. PC was such a great fundamental bassist. The question is...was Miles really looking to develop in a new way, and did he see Scott as a catalyst to move in that direction?

Excellent point...you could also fantasize about the possibility of Miles bringing Bill back into the fold. What, then would happen to the whole mix in terms of Miles selecting a drummer to go with Bill and Scott. It could have gone in some very interesting ways....hire a drummer that would have gone in to the direction of Bill and Scotts 'interplay' concept OR more in the direction of the next Miles band of Herbie, Ron and Tony. Some of those black market tapes out now can give you an idea of how the section of Bill, Scott and Philly Joe sound. I know many people question Scott's ability as a time player or as we say. a cooker. Another thing people seem to love to harp about is Scotts inability to be heard...I think that's nonsense. If the audibility issue is such a big deal, why was Scott able to hold down the bass chair on two pretty big bands: Buddy Morrow and later the HUGE Stan Kenton band with just a microphone? IMO, Scott had the power within to do whatever it took to take care of business. Some of the things that Bill said to me personally about Scott were, to me, as if he were talking about almost a mystical power.
Another point: All those stories going around about Mile Davis being such an ass-hole have always bothered me. I didn't know him personally, but I have known people who knew him on an almost intimate basis and these stories just can't be taken seriously. To wit, signing the card to Scott: Your buddy, MD. Doesn't sound hateful, doesn't sound racially un-balanced...Miles being Black and Scott being white.....
One last thing....along about this time, I made a trip out to L.A. to play a date with the great singer Ethel Ennis. (Marcus, yes, it was with Joe Kloess and Buono) We went to Shelly's Manne Hole to visit Red Mitchell...this was around 1960. He was playing with Mose Allison and a drummer I didn't know. The big deal on this visit was ....Red was using an amplifier...it was so big Red actually used it to sit on! This was for me, the first time i'd heard of a bassist using an amp in a serious and more important, successful way. This is just a subtle way of getting to another point...the Scott/Miles issue is kept in mind when you think about Scott LaFaro using a PU and amp. This was about the time period that cats were starting to show up on the gig with amplifiers!
This is another (to me) biggy....what would Scott sound like with an amp. We've all talked about this before so i'm not trying to dig it back up....one thing leads to another.....
Sorry, I went off on a little tangent there.
Anyway, to me, this is fascinating stuff.

gomez hacienda · #5 09-08-2006, 09:02 AM

You're certainly lucky to have been a witness, first-hand to so much of this history. It's easy for some to slap the lable of 'racist' or 'a-hole' on Miles. He did get his pounding from the cops that time in NY, and Max Roach had almost convinced him not to play at Carnegie Hall, mainly because of Max's own feelings about race. But I strongly feel that most of all Miles respected the musician, not the color of the skin. Miles knew how good Scott was and what he might possibly become. You could say he was an opportunist...but who wouldn't be if you could possibly lure a great musician to the band. Miles was ambitious, no doubt. but a racist, I'd like to think not.

Ike Harris · #6 09-08-2006, 09:50 AM

Hey Paul-

Interesting question on one of my favorites. As we've noted on the non-Bill Evans records, Scotty had the ability and desire to adapt to whatever the genre of groups he was playing with, both volume and style-wise. I don't think he would have tried the "obligato" style that he did with Bill on Miles' stuff unless the opportunity presented itself, and knowing Miles's tendency to explore, it certainly could have gone that way.

Last year, I came upon an interesting re-release of a record that Miles' 1st quintet released in 1960 called "Live! with John Coltrane". The tunes are a few of the standards that he had done in the past but contain several arco bass solos by PC that really show off Chambers' stuff. I don't know whether it's because it's a live thing or Miles was beginning to prefer hearing more bass solo material, but it tells me that he was wanting to push the quintet in a new direction and PC was certainly getting a workout on this set.

As we well know, the new group included Ron Carter, who was and is an expert time-keeper and the quintet proceeded down the path that we're familiar with, but it would sure be something to imagine what it would have been like with Scotty aboard. I had seen that greeting card a while back also with the same reaction and am glad you brought it here to discuss.

Ike

Aaron Saunders · #7 09-08-2006, 10:41 AM

IMO, it really would've changed the face of music today. The sixties "quintet" would've been so different. Maybe Miles would never have even done the electric thing, or maybe he would've done it in a completely different way. Who knows?

Maybe Scotty would've taken a similar place as Vitous did in Weather Report only with a Miles-lead electric group, a founding player in the fusion era. I don't find it too far of a stretch to imagine Scott LaFaro tearing it up on a slab and still schooling everyone on DB. The face of bass today would be totally changed. Scott's influence on Jaco would've been very significant if he was still around, IMO, which then would've changed the face of electric bass as well as DB.

I dunno, man. Maybe it would've better, but it definitely would've changed everything we have now. The group with Ron was one of the most influential combos (if not THE) that's existed, so to change that would change the way jazz is heard and played today. I can see Tony Williams and Shorter working in that setting with Scotty and Bill. It'd definitely be one hell of a trip, that's for sure.

mrpc · #8 09-09-2006, 03:08 AM

Would of, could of, should of..... it's too bad that Scott didn't make it further. On the other hand, maybe Scott said what he had to say, and checked out, on to a better place. It is interesting though, to imagine what we think he might have done if.......

musicman5string · #9 09-09-2006, 02:33 PM

Maybe if Scott joined the band, Miles direction when he got Dave Holland would have begun earlier? Just a thought, because Dave is more like Scott in his playing than Ron Carter.

I can't imagine what it would have been like with Scott, to be honest, but it's a nice story about how much Miles liked Scott's playing. To fair, the recordings with Ron are among my favorites, and I'm glad we have those.

I always felt that had Scott lived, he would've become a prominent composer/bandleader in the style of Mingus. His two compostions on the Vanguard sessions show a very interesting approach.

Electric bass? Hmm....maybe he would've. I think Aaron's point is true; it would've changed everthing. Then again Mingus never liked EB, maybe Scott wouldn't have taken to it either. Who knows?

Wasn't Scott set to begin taking some serious classical lessons with someone before his death? I forget who.

Paul Warburton · #10 09-09-2006, 03:20 PM

The comments so far are exactly what I was looking for, and knowing most of you i'm not a bit surprised....I don't know if having lived through that era, like me and Ike, makes any dif in how you think about these things. If you weren't around, i'm afraid you can't realize the scope of what the Bill Evans trio did in terms of changing the jazz rhythm section. Alot of you think about this in terms of the big, cultural cities like NY, LA, and San Francisco. This had a huge impact on every pianist, bassist and drummer on the face of this earth! You could walk into a hotel in Des Moines, Iowa and hear a cocktail hour trio playing like this.....in Europe...same deal.
I would hope that our younger players who, may take this a bit for granted, understand the impact of this. Absolutely none of us in the jazz rhythm section play the same as we would have if it weren't for these three people!

RHFusillo · #11 09-10-2006, 03:42 PM

Gary Peacock substituted for Ron Carter on some of Miles' gigs, according to what I have read. I wish there were some recordings of that -- it might give some insight as to how that band would have sounded with LaFaro.

alavakian · #12 09-11-2006, 04:44 PM

Interesting hypothesis. My guess is that the association wouldn't last very long and that Scott would eventually form his own group, given the immense ego of both Scott and Miles, bound to clash.

mapleleaf4evr · #13 09-11-2006, 08:45 PM

Great topic for conversation. There is no doubt that Scott would have had a significant influence on the sound of Miles' quintet, however I am not sure how well his personality would have meshed with the others. I understand that he could be somewhat argumentative and stubborn about musical ideas. That quintet already had a lot of internal dynamics, probably one of the reasons Bill Evans left when he did. On the other hand, I would love to have heard him with Coltrane's classic quartet. I think he would have sounded great with Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner as part of that rhythm section. Just think, he could have been involved in two classic live dates at the Village Vanguard!
Just in passing, it is interesting to note how close in age Scotty was to Paul Chambers. Paul was just a little under a year older. What a tragedy that we lost both of them so young.

Ed Fuqua · #14 03-21-2007, 10:35 AM

I haven't had a chance to listen to it much, but a buddy just laid on me two discs (4 tunes at about 18 minutes per tune) of an aircheck from a performance in 1958 in Vancouver of Harold Land, Elmo Hope, Scott LaFaro and Lennie McBrown.

Will report back.

Paul Warburton · #15 12-29-2008, 08:05 PM

WELL?

JDubbleyoo · #16 12-29-2008, 08:42 PM

I have a recording of Miles' Quintet (w/ Wayne, Herbie and Tony) with a great, Southern Californian post Red/LaFaro bassist, Albert Stinson, live at UC Berkeley in 1967. Stinson absolutely kills it.

Paul Warburton · #17 12-29-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDubbleyoo

I have a recording of Miles' Quintet (w/ Wayne, Herbie and Tony) with a great, Southern Californian post Red/LaFaro bassist, Albert Stinson, live at UC Berkeley in 1967. Stinson absolutely kills it.

Man, am I glad I did this bump. Expect a PM John...We need to talk some business.
I'm an Albert fan from way back...
When I worked my minute with Bill and Joe, Bill asked me if it'd be ok if Albert sat in. Fool that I was, I said sure.
He carved my ass.... up one side and down the other....on MY bass!

oliebrice · #18 12-31-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDubbleyoo

I have a recording of Miles' Quintet (w/ Wayne, Herbie and Tony) with a great, Southern Californian post Red/LaFaro bassist, Albert Stinson, live at UC Berkeley in 1967. Stinson absolutely kills it.

I'd love to hear that recording. where did you find it? is the bass audible?

Paul Warburton · #19 12-31-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alavakian

Interesting hypothesis. My guess is that the association wouldn't last very long and that Scott would eventually form his own group, given the immense ego of both Scott and Miles, bound to clash.

Hey man...Please enlighten me on Scott's immense ego.

Eric Hochberg · #20 12-31-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHFusillo

Gary Peacock substituted for Ron Carter on some of Miles' gigs, according to what I have read. I wish there were some recordings of that -- it might give some insight as to how that band would have sounded with LaFaro.

Eddie Gomez also subbed with Miles at the Plugged Nickel in Chicago. Don't know if he made it onto any recordings but another perspective via Bill Evans must have been interesting.