Afterlength: Big Deal?

Bassalova · #1 05-26-2009, 03:50 AM

How important is the afterlength actually?
I read in earlier posts that one should tune the afterlength 2 octaves and a fourth from the original string tone.

E string: Afterlength tuned A
A string: Afterlength tuned D
D string: Afterlength tuned G
G string: Afterlength tuned C

Is this just bull, or does it actually make a difference?

I have earlier set up my afterlength by measuring it to be 1/6 of the string length, from nut to bridge. This is another tip that I got from reading Talkbass. When I checked my afterlenght tune yesterday I found out that it was tuned very close to 2 octaves and a fifth. So I should really shorten my tailpiece cord a bit, to get the tune to be 2 octaves and a fourth.....

But how much does this affect the sound of the bass annyway?

Marc Piane · #2 05-26-2009, 06:24 AM

game on

Paul Warburton · #3 05-26-2009, 07:03 AM

Yeah. This is one of those ideas somebody came up with many years ago. Gary Karr was one of the first guys who came out with some sensible ideas about it, then Barrie Kolstein came out with his tunable tailpieces.
I feel the more you start getting involved with little things like this, the quicker you'll be heading to the Farm. Extended saddle boots, IMO, are much the same way.
OCD lives.

To most of us here, I believe, the important stuff on a healthy bass with good sound post adjustment, happens in the playing length. Nut to the bridge, including the board of course.

Marc Piane · #4 05-26-2009, 07:08 AM

+1 Paulie.

Shoot, I'm just happy if I can not suck north of the bridge.

Eric Hochberg · #5 05-26-2009, 07:48 AM

Agree with Paul. I moved my tailpiece up quite a bit at one point and did notice a somewhat softer feel in terms of string tension pizz. The sound didn't change. I doubt that the difference between a 4th and 5th will make a difference, but give it a try and report back...

Paul Warburton · #6 05-26-2009, 08:01 AM

I was working with Bobby Hutcherson years ago, and he turned around to me and said....."Set up a latin figure down below your bridge for an intro". I did, and it was very cool sounding. I went home that night and got out some rubber washers and stuck them in between the strings where the silks meet the saddle on the tailpiece. I tuned the intervals down there to match the key of that tune. Bobby loved that, but it DIDN'T change anything in the playing length.

TroyK · #7 05-26-2009, 09:30 AM

I'm not a luthier and don't fool around with the setup of my bass personally at all, but Jake tuned my afterlengths and mode matched my tailpiece to my fingerboard last year and all I can comment on is the before and after. Amazing. We had a little TBDB convention in my living room last weekend and everyone who had played my bass before and after is a convert.

We also did things like changing end pins and I was amazed at how much difference swapping endpins could make to the tone and volume, as well as playability, indirectly.

I'm not advocating that it must be done or your bass doesn't work right, but it's not bunk. To Paul's point, I think a lot of basses are a soundpost adjustment away from sounding much better and a lot of people don't bother, which is a shame. I also see a lot of bridges either tilting or out of place which is a much simpler and more impactful setup necessisity.

But, if you're uphappy with something about how your bass is sounding and you've got someone who can do that work for you at a reasonable price, it's not fruitless.

Eric Hochberg · #8 05-26-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyK

Jake tuned my afterlengths and mode matched my tailpiece to my fingerboard last year and all I can comment on is the before and after. Amazing.

I think the mode matching would have more to do with any change than tuning the afterlengths.

TroyK · #9 05-26-2009, 10:33 AM

Could be. Like I said, I don't intellectually take myself into these things, I trust my luthier(s) and my ears. I will say that a good set up is key and I'm sure there are several things that contribute to that and several more that are icing on the cake.

Bassalova · #10 05-26-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Agree with Paul. I moved my tailpiece up quite a bit at one point and did notice a somewhat softer feel in terms of string tension pizz. The sound didn't change. I doubt that the difference between a 4th and 5th will make a difference, but give it a try and report back...

I guess its a matter of harmonics.......fifths make different harmonics than fourths. So if the fourths make a nicer harmonics palette......

arnoldschnitzer · #11 05-26-2009, 10:59 AM

Changes south of the bridge do make a difference. Afterlength, tailpiece length/weight, and saddle height are all things that contribute to a bass' overall sound and response. These factors are subtle, but nonetheless real.

TroyK · #12 05-26-2009, 11:15 AM

Again, being the muse here, rather than the expert. I was amazed at how different swapping endpins made the same bass sound. Not subtle, we sort of argued about what we heard, but no one argued that it wasn't making a difference.

Jake deVilliers · #13 05-26-2009, 11:28 AM

In my experience, tuning the afterlengths can have a big impact on the sound. The strings even out and dead spots on the fingerboard go away.

Don't take my word for it, try it yourself. Play every note on the fingerboard slowly at pp and listen hard. Adjust your tailpiece wire or tuck little wedges under the strings, whatever it takes - then listen again.

Bassalova · #14 05-26-2009, 05:55 PM

I have now made some adjustments to the afterlength. I also put some shims under the bridge, to raise it a bit.

Since it is late at night in Norway, I haven´t had the time for a good testride. The bass sound i bit different, the strings got a little stiffer also, which perhaps was a good thing. The afterlength adjustment seemed to sort og release the core tone of my Bel Cantos. Think something happened with the tension.

One downside is that the internal frequency of the tailpiece harness (think of the tailgut, tailpiece and the afterlength as one big string) got more sensitive. When playing notes at Bb & B (which seem to be the internal frequency of the tailpiece harness) the harness sing along, and produses a kind og low frequency reverb. So I put some damping material under the southest part of the tailpiece to dampen the boom, without putting any pressure on the top of the bass.

I am going to do a thorough test tomorrow when playing on a rehearsal with the symphonic orchestra

Bubbabass · #15 05-26-2009, 09:57 PM

Quite a surprise to find this thread on the day I decided to do this procedure. Went from 2 octaves plus a M6 to 2 octaves plus a P5th. The tone was noticeably brighter under the ear, slightly less so to the microphone, using Helicores that have been on for 5-6 years. Generally the tone is less sluggish, but I'll probably still get new strings.

MT Spaces · #16 05-27-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyK

I'm not a luthier and don't fool around with the setup of my bass personally at all, but Jake tuned my afterlengths and mode matched my tailpiece to my fingerboard last year and all I can comment on is the before and after. Amazing. We had a little TBDB convention in my living room last weekend and everyone who had played my bass before and after is a convert.

We also did things like changing end pins and I was amazed at how much difference swapping endpins could make to the tone and volume, as well as playability, indirectly ...

I'm no luthier neither

. I was there in-person at Troy's "little convention" last Sunday. I hadn't heard Troy's carved Czech before Jake worked it over but I sure can attest to the Amazing sound of his bass now.

I also had Jake DeeVee do the whole bevy of his bass-tricks on my 1960-ish plywoody Epiphone B-5 and I just got it back at the TBDB shin-dig. I know what the Epi sounded like last October when I shipped it off to him on the Greyhound .... stifled and constipated, unbalanced strings, somewhat low volume.

I know what it sounds like now

... Even though it still has some settling in to do in my dry climate, last night I played two 1-hour back-to-back free-shows for Old Folks and then jammed for another 1.5 hours after that. The bass is now big'n'beefy, balanced, breathing well, and mighty-sonorous (for a plywoody

). Band members made very positive comments on the acoustic sound of the bass and another basser tried it out and she sure was smiling.

I really don't know which of the voo-doo

tricks made the most difference ..... afterlength tuning, lightning-up the orig Epi maple tailpiece and then mode-matching it to the fingerboard, lightweight drumstick endpin, new nut, new bridge, soundpost adj .... But I sure can say that the total effect is The Real Deal

!

Bassalova · #17 05-29-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubbabass

Quite a surprise to find this thread on the day I decided to do this procedure. Went from 2 octaves plus a M6 to 2 octaves plus a P5th. The tone was noticeably brighter under the ear, slightly less so to the microphone, using Helicores that have been on for 5-6 years. Generally the tone is less sluggish, but I'll probably still get new strings.

Tuning my afterlength from fifths to fourths made the bass a little brighter, and the strings a littlebit stiffer and less flimsy. I removed the shims from under the bridge. They didn´t work for their purpous. I really should have get hold of a lighter tailpiece (maple). The ebony tailpiece´s low freq absorbment issues are got worse with fourth tuning. I therefore consider trying a nylon tailgut instead of the braided steel cable. I guess it can be a good solution, to make the tailpiece a little less responsive to the "north of the bridge" action.

Bassalova · #18 06-02-2009, 02:49 PM

This evening I did put on a nylon tailgut that came with the ebony tailpiece i bought for Bob Gollihur some years ago. It was lying in the drawer because it didn´t work out with the first bass I owned. Now I got the Grunert, and the nylon tailgut seem to work out better. The low frequencie feeddback is gone, and harmonics are actually more clearer.
I´m eager to hear how it works with the orchestra tomorrow night

kurt · #19 06-03-2009, 01:59 PM

Could mode matching potentially make one big bad wolf tone, especially when amplified?

Jake deVilliers · #20 06-03-2009, 02:10 PM

I don't think so - it evens out a bass rather than making it peaky - it tends to fix the 'dead' notes on the neck, makes the DB smoother tonally.

The top has a note, the back has a note, the bass bar has a note etc. I suppose if you managed to tune ALL the parts to one note you'd have one bad wolf but that's not what we're talking about here.

Having the two anchor points working at the same speed seems to allow the string vibrations to get through the bridge and into the top more cleanly, bringing more depth, substance and nuance. It removes phase cancellations, just like tuning the afterlengths does, that's for sure.