Am I planning the impossible?

[cold elephant]

Hello all,

Just wondering - how possible is it to increase the overstand on a bass 'to order'? I have a problem with my new 5 string bass, big sucker, in that it's almost impossible to avoid bowing on the c bout when playing on the top string. Long tones are OK, spiccato-type bow work is out of the question. I'm having kittens a little bit about what moving the neck forward might potentially do to the sound and response, as I really like the way the instrument responds now. I think to really avoid having a bow problem i'd need to have the neck put forward about 20mm at least....

That said, one of the best five stringers I've seen (best basses full stop that I've heard) is an old Venetian job with an impossibly far forward looking neck, huge raised saddle at the bottom, and massively tall bridge to boot. The angle of the strings over the bridge was ridiculously shallow. I've played about disabling the B string to get an estimate for what reduced tension might do to the sound of my bass (a totally ridiculous approximation i know) and it seemed to gain a little projection, the sound was slightly more akin to what it was like before the 5th string. I would be worried about having a shim put in under the fingerboard, I don't think increasing the angle of the strings over the bridge would do the bass any favours as it feels quite springy under the left hand and bow already. Put it this way, at the height I like having the strings for orchestra I think my fingers wouldn't last very long with increased tension

SO to sum up it seems after my ill-informed ponderings that the best option would be having the neck moved out a bit. But this something that's often done? I spoke to the the luthier who did the conversion and he seemed to think it would be more trouble than was worthwhile... Any input appreciated. I don't know too much about this kind of thing

Cheers in advance guys!

[Matthew Tucker]

what's the bow clearance like on the B side? if there's plenty, a re-cut bridge might help.

[robobass]

Bringing the neck out isn't at all uncommon. You can accomplish the same thing with a shim, but I find that less elegant, and prefer to not thicken the neck. You can maintain the tension you have now via an increase the saddle height. I've had this done simply to achieve a bit more bridge downforce without raising my action. This helped the sound, and the increased bow clearance was a welcome side benefit. The only downside was that my luthier damaged the top of the ribs a bit during the process. It was still worth it though.

[RCWilliams]

2 degrees at the heel = 20mm at the bridge, more or less.

[cold elephant]

Hmm, so it's actually very doable to get the neck put further out? Surprised to hear that after the fuss my luthier made when I mentioned it.

I did actually have the bridge re-cut when I took the bass to get some cracks glued up the other day, and I think the curvature has been decreased to the minimum possible amount on the middle strings in order to get MORE clearance for the B, as that was already a problem. In short there's hardly any room for manoeuvre on that side either, I just notice it less because I spend less time playing on the B i suppose...

The bass does already have a fairly large saddle on the bottom, 40mm off the table. I thought increased saddle height gave less downforce on the top not more? It sounds like from what RCWilliams says that bringing the neck out that much would only minimally affect tension anyways, so perhaps i'm worrying a bit too much.

I suppose I never really thought about how much thicker a shim might make the neck (duh!) and given that it's already the size of a young giant redwood , i think i might have to pass on that option!

I'll get on to Roger Dawson when I get back to London in the new year and see what he makes of my ideas. Cheers guys!

[Eric Hochberg]

I would think that the luthier that did the conversion should have considered the overstand-string clearance issue from the get go. If your neck is really that fat, maybe a shim and some neck wood removal would be a less expensive solution.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by cold elephant

... I thought increased saddle height gave less downforce on the top not more? It sounds like from what RCWilliams says that bringing the neck out that much would only minimally affect tension anyways, so perhaps i'm worrying a bit too much....

Well, you seem to be in the ballpark, but let me clarify. Increasing saddle height does indeed decrease bridge downforce, since it decreases the break angle over the bridge on the "south" side.

On the "north" side, bringing the neck out tends to affect bridge break angle less than a shim, since the angle of the neck tends to remain the same, whereas a shim usually has a wedge shape, which increases the effective angle of the fingerboard in relation to the top. Downforce on the top is basically a function of break angle over the bridge, and to a lesser degree string length.

It's hard for me to explain all of this concisely, but basically I would say that if you want to increase your bridge height because of clearance issues, but like your tension and downforce just the way it is, then a good plan would be to have your neck brought out, and at the same time have your bridge and saddle heights raised by exactly the same amount. It would be a good idea to take measurements of of all parameters before and after. If the neck angle ends up slightly different, you can make a correction via a saddle height adjustment.

[Bijoux]

I have owned two basses that had that shim installed between the neck and the fingerboard. In the case of these two basses they were the same thickness evenly because the neck was too thin to begin with.
The principal in my current Orchestra also has one of those although in his case the shim tapes down towards the nut.
I noticed that to raise his bridge he had two small shims under the bridge feet, and I also noticed that a few bassists have the wire coat hanger on their tailpieces!
All Taboo on TB! lol

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by cold elephant

Hmm, so it's actually very doable to get the neck put further out? Surprised to hear that after the fuss my luthier made when I mentioned it.

In defense of your luthier though, "do-able" doesn't always mean easy. Depending on the neck block, age of bass, design etc, it might be a fairly costly exercise. Imagine if the neck was epoxied in? Or dowelled? Or the neck block has an inherent weakness? Sometimes hard to tell until you start. But yes it is always doable.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Makers tend to build 5 stringers wide, to increase the air volume and help support the low B string. Unfortunately, if the c-bout area is wide, bowing the outer strings can be nearly impossible. 5 string basses need more clearance than a 4 string if they are going to be successful as arco instruments.