Anyone used a ToneRite before

[longfinger]

Since March, indoor humidity has gone from 40% with a humidifier working to keep it there, to over 60% with the humidifier turned off and packed up for next winter. I've also lowered the bridge adjusters to keep string heights playable. That much has changed.

I've had my fish tank pump on my carved Sun bass on and off this last month, and I just did a 70-something hour treatment on my Strunal ply. I think this practice works somewhat. Both instruments seemed easier to get sound out of than before and seemed to vibrate better than before. The upper range of each string seemed to come out more than before too.

I wonder how an instrument's vibrations created by a fish tank air pump differ to the touch from those created by an actual Tonerite.

[engedi1]

really dumb question here: obviously the tonerite has it's own thing going on, but could one emulate the primevibe by simply putting both sides of a nice pair of studio headphones on one's bass, and then letting one's ipod run for a couple of days? seems like that would get the same effect. I might try this and see if it works.

[longfinger]

Something with direct physical contact with the instrument would likely work better than anything with an air space in between then two.

this seems similar to the other primevibe product.
Tunebug » Vibe

[primeVibe]

Originally Posted by engedi1

really dumb question here: obviously the tonerite has it's own thing going on, but could one emulate the primevibe by simply putting both sides of a nice pair of studio headphones on one's bass, and then letting one's ipod run for a couple of days? seems like that would get the same effect. I might try this and see if it works.

I estimate at least 10-50x the mechanical vibration with primeVibe against your top vs. the most powerful headphone drivers extant.

A regular loudspeaker driver, regardless of size (from an 18" infinite baffle woofer to the tiniest in-ear bud) is designed to move air particles to generate sound. Such a driver in normal use produces audible sound. Hold it flat against a solid and it is almost silent.

primeVibe technology is designed to convert a solid (your DB top) into a loudspeaker. Used correctly the associated solid vibrates and produces sound. Hold it in the air and it is almost silent.

You can see/hear/feel the two technologies work opposite to each other. Hold the primeVibe gizmo in the air-almost silence. Lay a woofer flat on a table, almost nothing.

Their two purposes are mutually incompatible and mutually exclusive. One is incompatible for use where the other shines, and vice-versa.

We have a 30 day return privilege. Of 300 in the field a sum total two returns, one unopened (I think he fell ill) and one return for performing below expectation.

[primeVibe]

Originally Posted by longfinger

Something with direct physical contact with the instrument would likely work better than anything with an air space in between then two.

this seems similar to the other primevibe product.
Tunebug » Vibe

Tunebug employs similar technology with far lower power envelope. Tunebug (definitely a cute name) employs a 450mAh battery. I just looked at my rechargeable Ni-MH batteries: AA size is 1600mAh (almost 4x Tunebug), D is 4500mAh (10x Tunebug). 450mAh powering primeVibe's two x 7W amplifiers might discharge before one CD was complete. Tunebug has no power amp rating. It seems reasonable to estimate Tunebug has about 5% of primeVibe's power.

Another example:THIS battery powered amp makes twice our power (2x 15W) and employs eight AA batteries (my AA x8 = 12,800mAh, or 28.5 x Tunebug's battery power).

Shortly before production, Dr. Julian Fordham PhD. in Materials Science, increased primeVibe magnet power rating and switched to neodymium to prevent degaussing at high levels. No such technology in Tunebug.

Tunebug has no special contact surface to protect fine instrument finish such as primeVibe (vinyl is caustic to instrument finish).

With Tunebug's tiny chip amp built in to the same housing as the transducer, its quite reasonable to estimate its f3 cutoff in the bass is at least 1.5 octaves higher than primeVibe. primeVibe has a high-pass filter to protect the transducers (none blown yet, knock on wood), but it's only 3 dB/octave at 200 Hz (-3 dB @ 100 Hz, -6 dB @ 50 Hz).

With all my high-end audio experience, I was still surprised to hear the level of dynamic and musical expression produced by primeVibe when employing solo music program matching the instrument being seasoned. In some ways, the illusion of live music met or exceeded some of the best high-end systems I've heard.

I'd kill (a gnat) for Tunebug's profit margin.

[Gatortail1]

who owns the patent on the PrimeVibe technology? I have a found another use for the PrimeVibe.

[primeVibe]

Debra and I own the "right" to continuously pay the patent holder Hi-Wave (was NXT till 20 Dec 2010) a license fee for the use of their technology.

Hi-Wave owns about 375 international patents on the technology. Any electro-mechanical device whose function results in making sound by physical contact with a solid, Hi-Wave owns exclusive rights to it.

PM me for name and email for the head of Hi-Wave's USA Sales team.

Take my word for it: if anything even remotely like primeVibe itself would fill your need, you'd be several tens of thousands of dollars ahead purchasing bulk primeVibe from us. Hi-Wave invested many millions in patent protection, directly reflected in their license fees, not for the faint-hearted.

A benefit of jumping in bed with Hi-Wave (after you swallow the license fee) is you're pretty well protected. No Asian-based company would violate the patent protection for at least two reasons:

• Illegal setup/tooling are cost-prohibitive vs. just purchasing legally
• They'd risk dealing with the P.R.C. which directly translates to the Chinese military, because China directly and handsomely profits from local (legal) production

Hi-Wave's existing transducers could be purchased, but I'm quite certain not re-sold without paying the license fee if it was re-packaged in any way. They jump on violations like white on rice. NXT (their old name) beat Philips up and down the courthouse a few years ago.

[engedi1]

With all my high-end audio experience, I was still surprised to hear the level of dynamic and musical expression produced by primeVibe when employing solo music program matching the instrument being seasoned. In some ways, the illusion of live music met or exceeded some of the best high-end systems I've heard.

I'd kill (a gnat) for Tunebug's profit margin.

Hey James, good to hear from you, this is what I love about talkbass! Your above comment intrigues me. Are you saying that, if for example, I put on the Edgar Meyer recording of the Bach cello suites then it will make my bass sound like Edgar is playing? (if I can learn to airbow, I can see myself winning some orchestral auditions )

Question: if primevibe makes the instrument itself amplify the music, turning the bass into a loudspeaker, how loud is it? Would I be able to use it at night and not wake up the family/neighborhood, and still get any positive benefit from it?

[Gatortail1]

Originally Posted by engedi1

Question: if primevibe makes the instrument itself amplify the music, turning the bass into a loudspeaker, how loud is it? Would I be able to use it at night and not wake up the family/neighborhood, and still get any positive benefit from it?

Dude, It's loud.

[Gatortail1]

Originally Posted by primeVibe

Hi-Wave owns about 375 international patents on the technology. Any electro-mechanical device whose function results in making sound by physical contact with a solid, Hi-Wave owns exclusive rights to it.

That technology is at least 60 years old. How long have they owned the patent?

[primeVibe]

Originally Posted by Gatortail1

That technology is at least 60 years old. How long have they owned the patent?

The "technology" is as old as electro-mechanical devices converting AC signals into audible sound, however old that is. Best I can tell looking at it, NXT's technology replaces the cone with a flat piston, and its Qts is so high that it is highly inefficient propagating air particles, but it vibrates a solid like no tomorrow, which in turn thereafter the solid vibrates the air particles to make sound. It's a simple, super-high-Q loudspeaker with a few tweaks.

I asked my Hi-Wave NA sales rep for details regarding which patents protect my considerable investment. His response was there are so many patents that they overlap, and he simply gave me the number (closer to 400 than 300).

The following is likely accurate: any, and I mean any, electro-mechanical transducer that happens to make more sound contacting a solid surface that it makes when not contacting a solid surface, you'll be talking to a Hi-Wave legal rep sooner or later about that particular transducer.

In other words, NXT apparently patented anything electro-mechanical with a Q so high (and with one or two little tweaks) that it is quieter in air than it is when contacting a solid. Any speaker resulting in that effect is their IP. It's simple, it's ingenious, and it's costly to pay for the license, because patents cost about $15k each on average, much more depending on the money at stake (in this case, a lot). I could and even might sympathize with the point of view that it was greedy of them to do it. But the flip side is, if they did not, someone else would have, and that's virtually impossible to dispute.

The likelihood of something slipping through any crack with close to 400 international patents is, um, a low-odds bet.

[primeVibe]

Originally Posted by Gatortail1

Dude, It's loud.

I sympathize. Yes, on the bass it's louder than a guitar. Actually, it's louder and the wavelengths are longer (lower in frequency) and the longer the wave the more efficient it is leaking through walls, cracks, etc.

Now....in this here land of Utah, or "land of big houses" as she who cooks labeled it shortly after we moved from CA, it's not an issue because, well this darn place is big and I can get away from the sound (my music/media room in the basement was so big when I first saw it I thought it was too big...20 Hz bass with 113 dB potential, played through a 5-piece Distributed Sub-woofer Array, with every bass mode acoustically flattened without EQ, in a room with two concrete boundaries is a-m-a-z-i-n-g).

In your average place, worse in a Bronx apartment, I'm sure the noise might be an, um, "impediment". But my latest advice from bass player Andy Z. is to loosen or otherwise dampen the strings to avoid excessive seasoning at the note equal to that open string, which will quiet the noise somewhat.

I'll post more feedback from guitarists and bass players shortly, all of which has been very positive.

[Gatortail1]

Originally Posted by primeVibe

The "technology" is as old as electro-mechanical devices converting AC signals into audible sound, however old that is. Best I can tell looking at it, NXT's technology replaces the cone with a flat piston, and its Qts is so high that it is highly inefficient propagating air particles, but it vibrates a solid like no tomorrow, which in turn thereafter the solid vibrates the air particles to make sound. It's a simple, super-high-Q loudspeaker with a few tweaks.

They own the Design patent. That means that they own the IP of those certain components being assembled together that are intended to be used jointly for that application and to create a certain specific result which creates their product which is a version of public domain technology. Sorry man.

Originally Posted by primeVibe

I asked my Hi-Wave NA sales rep for details regarding which patents protect my considerable investment. His response was there are so many patents that they overlap, and he simply gave me the number (closer to 400 than 300).

The following is likely accurate: any, and I mean any, electro-mechanical transducer that happens to make more sound contacting a solid surface that it makes when not contacting a solid surface, you'll be talking to a Hi-Wave legal rep sooner or later about that particular transducer.

There are too many variables. Density of solid object, Size, Mass, Shape, Temperature, ratio of all previous variables applied to the transducer and back.

Originally Posted by primeVibe

In other words, NXT apparently patented anything electro-mechanical with a Q so high (and with one or two little tweaks) that it is quieter in air than it is when contacting a solid. Any speaker resulting in that effect is their IP. It's simple, it's ingenious, and it's costly to pay for the license, because patents cost about $15k each on average, much more depending on the money at stake (in this case, a lot). I could and even might sympathize with the point of view that it was greedy of them to do it. But the flip side is, if they did not, someone else would have, and that's virtually impossible to dispute.

A speaker is different than a transducer. A transducer is a component of a speaker. A speaker is not a component of a transducer.

Originally Posted by primeVibe

The likelihood of something slipping through any crack with close to 400 international patents is, um, a low-odds bet.

How much?

[primeVibe]

Originally Posted by engedi1

Hey James, good to hear from you, this is what I love about talkbass! Your above comment intrigues me. Are you saying that, if for example, I put on the Edgar Meyer recording of the Bach cello suites then it will make my bass sound like Edgar is playing? (if I can learn to airbow, I can see myself winning some orchestral auditions )

I believe the answer is yes. Overall my audio system (Duke, please visit again ASAP) equals or exceeds the best I've heard since I started being interested in music and audio over 45 years ago. HERE'S the custom 5-piece Distributed Sub-woofer Array designed by Duke LeJeune of AudioKinesis (Thunderchild designer/maker) with mode-flattening technology unavailable in any commercial system.

Even after hearing several hundred hours of fine guitars ($6k-$10k value, THIS ONE was reviewed in Downbeat Magazine) being seasoned, I'd look over while listening to a recording of a personal friend/professional guitarist, and think to myself that I never before heard some nuance of his finger style so accurately reproduced.

Question: if primevibe makes the instrument itself amplify the music, turning the bass into a loudspeaker, how loud is it? Would I be able to use it at night and not wake up the family/neighborhood, and still get any positive benefit from it?

I'll measure with a meter on a guitar and report back to class. For DB, yes, my friend Rich's wife moaned a bit about it (his DB seasoned in the basement with his wife upstairs). For guitar, I estimate the level is less than 1/2 actual playing volume with primeVibe level cranked up as loud as possible without distortion.

Important: as per recommendation of DB player Andy Z (he's doing all kinds of before/after spectral analysis and audio recording) he and I now recommend damping/loosening/removing strings from any and all instruments to avoid extra seasoning on the notes of the open strings. This will also quiet the instrument I estimate 15%.

BTW, I can't recommend this because of risk to finish, but Rich employed "poster putty" (used to hang posters) to season with his bass vertical and the putty held the transducers in place. He said the residue wiped off easily (gorgeous Belgian bass, we'll post before/after audio shortly), but again, I can't recommend this.

[primeVibe]

Originally Posted by Gatortail1

They own the Design patent. That means that they own the IP of those certain components being assembled together that are intended to be used jointly for that application and to create a certain specific result which creates their product which is a version of public domain technology. Sorry man.

You definitely seem to know much more than me on the legal aspects re. patent. I have no idea what the apology is about at the end.

My first notice that something was legally different about then-NXT's technology was a printed warning that accompanied my first product sample that the holder of that product could not legally resell a product employing their licensed technology without their permission (meaning pay the license fee).

I kinda think your mention of public domain makes sense. Speakers are public domain. But Hi-Wave seems to have patented the use of speakers that make more sound contacting something more solid than air. This is consistent with my conversations with patent attorneys. Even if you start with something in public domain, the more likely a new use is novel and could not or would not be thought of in normal discourse, the more likely you may be granted patent. But I'm certainly open to correction because I'm not an attorney.

There are too many variables. Density of solid object, Size, Mass, Shape, Temperature, ratio of all previous variables applied to the transducer and back.

Makes sense, what I can understand. You're knowledge way exceeds mine on these points.

A speaker is different than a transducer. A transducer is a component of a speaker. A speaker is not a component of a transducer.

Again, your technical knowledge far exceeds mine. I just use the word "transducer" the way the US PTO attorney did while selecting the product category: "electro-mechanical transducer"

How much?

You'd know way better than me. Then-NXT beat Philips up pretty bad in court a couple years ago.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by primeVibe

BTW, I can't recommend this because of risk to finish, but Rich employed "poster putty" (used to hang posters) to season with his bass vertical and the putty held the transducers in place. He said the residue wiped off easily (gorgeous Belgian bass, we'll post before/after audio shortly), but again, I can't recommend this.

I don't understand why the two prime vibe transducers can't just be placed on the bridge of an upright bass while it's in a vertical position on a stand. The bridge is designed to transmit string vibrations to the rest of the instrument. The electrical gizmo can vibrate the bridge and the bridge vibrates the bass body, the way it happens during real playing. It's clear that violins, violas and even cellos are too small to allow this, but a DB is big enough to do it the right way. Right?

[Gatortail1]

You said you spent a lot of $ for licensing. I said I'm sorry, because you didn't need to spend any money for licensing.