Barn Bass Project

gbaker · #1 01-31-2011, 11:15 PM

This is my new project:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/u...Jan2011178.jpg

If you haven't seen enough, here are the details:

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/u...ass%20Project/

It is a blockless flat back carved-top that arrived in 5 major pieces (actually more) out of a barn. I had to knock mud dauber nests off it.

I don't now its pedigree and would be most interested in any opinion concerning it. The purfeling is painted-on and looks like cheap and rough construction. It has a note that it was repaired in 1948 so it is older than that.

I am wondering how a blockless neck is assembled. Are wedges used to fill the mortises? Should I look toward converting it to a more normal top block with the neck mortised-on?

Should I remove all the rework cleats and just start over?

Any advice is appreciated.

BTW I realize that the bass is a bench-full of problems and would not be worth saving if I were paying for it. I am doing it mostly for the experience.

Thanks.

1st Bass · #2 02-01-2011, 07:04 AM

Looks like fun! I think it is certainly worth it, just for the experience, and especially for the "before and after" photo story.

SplitNick · #3 02-01-2011, 08:44 AM

I wish I had the time and know how. Looks like a very rewarding venture. Cheers.

George700DL · #4 02-01-2011, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbaker

This is my new project:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/u...Jan2011178.jpg

If you haven't seen enough, here are the details:

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/u...ass%20Project/

It is a blockless flat back carved-top that arrived in 5 major pieces (actually more) out of a barn. I had to knock mud dauber nests off it.

I don't now its pedigree and would be most interested in any opinion concerning it. The purfeling is painted-on and looks like cheap and rough construction. It has a note that it was repaired in 1948 so it is older than that.

I am wondering how a blockless neck is assembled. Are wedges used to fill the mortises? Should I look toward converting it to a more normal top block with the neck mortised-on?

Should I remove all the rework cleats and just start over?

Any advice is appreciated.

BTW I realize that the bass is a bench-full of problems and would not be worth saving if I were paying for it. I am doing it mostly for the experience.

Thanks.

Gary,

The GAL plan for the bass I built called for a blockless joint (the neck ends in a "foot" that presses against the back plate when strings are brought to tension, and the whole thing is aligned via shims in specially created slot in lieu of the normal mortise.

I chose to do a traditional neck block and mortise, because I could not see any benefit of going blockless, nor did it look like any less work.

George

bassedsouth · #5 02-01-2011, 12:27 PM

German bass probably and possibly the latter part of the 19th century.
You may want to start by undoing all old repairs and cleaning all grime and glue etc.
The standard now days would be to install a solid block and mount the neck flush to it minus the dovetail .
The bass bar looks like it needs replacing too.

A big job this, good luck .

Mike Goodbar · #6 02-01-2011, 12:33 PM

I'll be following this closely, as I have a project bass that looks exactly like this one (exept not in as many pieces). Be sure to make a lot of mistakes so that I can learn from them

I have not cracked it open and did not know what to expect from the neck "block." Interesting.

I read somewhere that this kind of bass was commonly ordered from the Sears Roebuck catalog for around $100. So maybe we have a couple of Kenmore basses on our hands.

gbaker · #7 02-01-2011, 02:18 PM

Thanks for the info and encouragement guys.

If there were a Sears and Roebuck bass this is probably one. It is an odd combination of rustic and refinement.

Geo, this neck has a heel cut at about 45 degrees that looks like it may have pressed on a center seam cleat (the cleat has been replace with paneling strips). I could be wrong. Does your flat back plan have something like a 1.5x 1.5 cleat running vertically covering the center seam and supporting the neck?

It was not hard removing the old patch cleats, they were loose and some came off with a finger nail pry. I spent about an hour and a half gallon of water for steam getting one stubborn rib loose from the corner block. Lesson 1 - I will think harder about repairing them with out removing them.

Back to the shop . . .

**Matthew Tucker** · #8 02-01-2011, 09:13 PM

don't go blockless. Fix that neck heel and put in a proper block and mortise.

bigolbassguy · #9 02-01-2011, 09:16 PM

Fun.

'Blockless wonder' for sure.

You should google it. There's a lot of information available.

bigolbassguy · #10 02-01-2011, 09:17 PM

Hey Matt

+1

George700DL · #11 02-02-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbaker

Geo, this neck has a heel cut at about 45 degrees that looks like it may have pressed on a center seam cleat (the cleat has been replace with paneling strips). I could be wrong. Does your flat back plan have something like a 1.5x 1.5 cleat running vertically covering the center seam and supporting the neck?

When I saw the pictures of your neck, I could immediately see how that foot would rest against the back.

The plans I used had a little "compartment" built out of spruce for the foot to go through, including a block glued to the back plate that would catch a heel of that foot (preventing the neck from progressing into the bass

). The sides of this "entrance" were made slightly wider to allow for shims, which would then be concealed with patches.

Again, I could not see the purpose for going this route, and made a simple mortise in a conventional neck block instead.

George

gbaker · #12 02-02-2011, 11:54 AM

Ok, thanks Geo, Mat, BSouth, it will become a proper block and mortise bass.

About cracks - I am new to them being a plywoodie owner. There are 7 or 8 rib cracks that have been stable for 60 years (they were cleated in 1948). Some up to 1 mm width open. They start at the corner blocks and run 3" to 6"and appear to have been caused by the ribs drying out. They are too open to glue laterally and won't close unless I break the glue line at the block which I don't much want to do. Do I just cleat them and leave them open?

gbaker · #13 02-03-2011, 03:20 PM

Here is a forensics problem:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/u...Jan2011185.jpg

Someone took a lot of time and trouble to remount the origional machines perpendicular to the strings rather than at the slight angle the tapered peg box provided. It required shims under one edge of the machine plate and changed where the peg hit the other side, it missed the hole. So the holes were elongated (beavered out) and little wooden quarter-moon-shaped inserts were used to fill the space vacated.

Maybe the owner was a wheelwright and though all axles should be straight with the wagon but I can think of no good reason for such an enterprise, can you?

iiipopes · #14 02-03-2011, 04:00 PM

If the post, gear and worm are all perpendicular to each other, then there is more efficient transfer of force, and less possibility of wear to the parts over time.

George700DL · #15 02-04-2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbaker

Here is a forensics problem:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/u...Jan2011185.jpg

Someone took a lot of time and trouble to remount the origional machines perpendicular to the strings rather than at the slight angle the tapered peg box provided. It required shims under one edge of the machine plate and changed where the peg hit the other side, it missed the hole. So the holes were elongated (beavered out) and little wooden quarter-moon-shaped inserts were used to fill the space vacated.

Maybe the owner was a wheelwright and though all axles should be straight with the wagon but I can think of no good reason for such an enterprise, can you?

Mine are perpendicular, but that's because I planned it that way. My pegbox is also a bit wider. When winding my gut strings, I went for not having much of a bend in the string between nut the tuner, but also I wanted the string to end up closer to the side that has the gear (less wear).

gbaker · #16 02-06-2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiipopes

If the post, gear and worm are all perpendicular to each other, then there is more efficient transfer of force, and less possibility of wear to the parts over time.

Thanks, can't argue with physics, but 97.3 % of all DBs have skewed machines (except for George's).

There must have been some specific motivation for all this butchery. And before I reversed it I just wondered if anyone had seen such a modification done before.

OK, I made that statistic up.

Jake deVilliers · #17 02-06-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbaker

Thanks, can't argue with physics, but 97.3 % of all DBs have skewed machines (except for George's).

There must have been some specific motivation for all this butchery. And before I reversed it I just wondered if anyone had seen such a modification done before.

OK, I made that statistic up.

Yeah, its more like 99.3 %!

**Matthew Tucker** · #18 02-06-2011, 04:52 PM

I suspect they were jammed or stiff, or the owner couldn't get the strings to wind on evenly

So the genius in the family said "that's because they're not on straight, if they were, there would be more efficient transfer of force, and less possibility of wear to the parts over time"

and got to work!

George700DL · #19 02-07-2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Yeah, its more like 99.3 %!

I wonder it that's because it's simply easier to drill a hole perpendicular to the face/install the plate flat against it? I'm totally ignorant on this.

If I wanna split hairs... I don't want the string to slip down to the end of the peg shaft, so I made mine perpendicular.

George

Jake deVilliers · #20 02-07-2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George700DL

I wonder it that's because it's simply easier to drill a hole perpendicular to the face/install the plate flat against it? I'm totally ignorant on this.

If I wanna split hairs... I don't want the string to slip down to the end of the peg shaft, so I made mine perpendicular.

George

Well yeah! The pegbox cheeks are angled so when the tuner is mounted square to the box the capstan shaft will be at an angle to the centre line of the instrument.

I think the angle is helpful in terms of keeping the string windings squeezed together up against the hole in the shaft...