bass bar ? Luthier recommendations

wayne holmes · #1 11-03-2009, 09:32 PM

Hi all, need some experienced input on what would be the best thing to do with the bass bar on a Lowendall that I am restoring except for the finish. The top of this bass is in good SHAPE. It has an integrated bar that has almost no graduation, slope, or hump. It looks too big width-wise(40mm) and too short length-wise(31in). However, I would like to keep it as is, but was wondering if some of you have had some experience with this and can tell me your opinion on what is the best thing to do with this bar. Taking the right approach to get the best sound is my objective. Never heard it before since it was in an unplayable condition, and too much risk to string it up before I began work on it. As I said, the top has kept it's shape and the bar also looks good. Thanks in advance for your help.

With lots of Bass Love,

Wayne

EDIT: Uploaded thumbnails for user - CF

Paul Warburton · #2 11-03-2009, 09:53 PM

I sold a great Lowendall to a well known classical player about 20 yrs. ago. It didn't have the integral bass bar, neither did my mentor Red Mitchell's. His had a lions head. Does this bass have the "L" burnstamp on the button?
I'm not a luthier but I'd bet most will come in and tell you to replace it with a new bar.
I clicked on your link and just got a page to your email.

wayne holmes · #3 11-03-2009, 11:03 PM

No "L", Paul, thanks for your reply

arnoldschnitzer · #4 11-04-2009, 06:17 AM

Most luthiers will replace an integral bass bar for several reasons: 1) Because the bar is slanted in relation to the center seam, the grain runs out on the bar, weakening it and making it prone to cracking. 2) Integral bass bars are usually crudely conceived and shaped, not optimized for sound. 3) The area of the top around the integral bass bar is usually ramped up toward the bar, so there is a thick, stiff zone all around it.

Replacing an integral bar is considered par for the course when restoring a string instrument. The sound and playability are almost always improved, providing the job is done well. Good luck!

MrSidecar · #5 11-04-2009, 06:32 AM

Hi,

I don´t want to get this going in another direction, I´m just curious. Arnold, your statements about integral bass bars sound logical. It raises some questions, though:

1. There´s modern day luthiers that build their new basses with integral bars again, claiming they do it for sound´s sake. One obvious pro might be that there can´t be any tension between the glued bar and the top. What do you think?

2. I have a 1830ish bass with an integral bar that sounds fantastic, as in "people turn their heads when they hear it". Very loud, very warm, very much sustain, very sweet, just plain cool. (mind Jaco saying "it ain´t braggin´ if you can back it up"

) Suppose you laid your hands on a bass like that- replace the integral with a glued in bar, or leave a winning team/system unchanged?

Thanks for your input

Sidecar

arnoldschnitzer · #6 11-04-2009, 08:53 AM

Sidecar:
1) Never heard of this, I think it's silly.
2) Ain't broke and you dig it, leave it be.

wayne holmes · #7 11-04-2009, 11:23 AM

Thanks Paul, Sidecar, and Arnold--you have really got me to thinking more about what I should do. I am pretty sure that someone in the past has shortened this bar, leaving me to believe that there could have been a dissatisfaction with the sound. Of course, SC, I will always wonder if I did the right thing, when I think about what you said about your 1830ish bass. At this point, I am leaning toward doing something with the bar. Here are my thoughts: shape it to a more traditional bar. Or, Use part of the bar and make a modified Kasha bar. I have experimented on some of my own restorables with the Kasha bar on a few German/Czech basses. The last one, 1933 Jaegar, which I did a modified Kasha/ with EP strings, sounds much better than it did before. Okay, shoot me but give me your thoughts if you will please. Or, I am thinking, also, of removing the integral and installing a new bar. I really don't like the way the bar looks, leans, length,etc. In Henley (p723) It states that Lowendahl patented a "resonator bar for stringed instruments". If this is referring to his bass bar, then he must have been very proud of it. Any clarification??? So, now I am leaning toward doing nothing to it. As you can see, I still need to hear from more of you. I'd like to get started on it soon. Thanks in advance for your input.

with lots of bass love,

wayne

**Matthew Tucker** · #8 11-04-2009, 04:03 PM

if you think someone shortened the bar to improve the sound, their instinct was probably saying that the top was too stiff at the ends. Looking at that tree-trunk, I have the same feeling. I feel that a bar needs to be flexible at the ends to allow the top to move and to avoid putting tension stresses in one spot.

So yes, if it were my bass, and I wanted to keep the integral bar for some reason (?) I'd re-graduate the bar; it's plenty wide enough, so gracefully removing some bar height above and below the FFs would give the top some more flex. If I was going to do that I'd weigh the top first, and take some measurements of the existing bar.

I installed a very wide bar in a bass with a thin top that i thought needed extra support and weight in the centre. Apart from the profile of the bar, wider at the bottom and thinner at the top, the bar was shaped conventionally. But the bar would have been 30% heavier than a conventional bar and the glue surface was larger. The operation was a success.

But you need to be very sure of your reasons for wanting to leave the integral bar there. What are they? Why not just put a nice new bar in?

What are the top graduations like?

arnoldschnitzer · #9 11-04-2009, 04:22 PM

Wayne, when you mention the Kasha bar, are you referring to the four-piece style, or a single bar with two humps?

I would put a nice conventional bass bar in there. Just my $.02...

wayne holmes · #10 11-04-2009, 07:08 PM

Thanks Matthew: As I stated, the best sound is my objective. --- There is hardly any graduation north or south. Putting a straight edge on top of the bar, there is a slope from the inner notch to the north end by only 5mm; going south from the inner notch there is 0 slope-----The top plate itself needs no reshaping. Putting a straight edge on the top of the top plate, there is a slope of over 20 mm at both north and south.

Thanks Arnold --for this bass, I was thinking about leaving the middle, put two humps in it and add the Kasha legs and arms using the wood I take out of the original bar, if possible.

I agree with both of you that putting a nice new bar is probably best thing to do.

I plan to give it a couple more days before I begin to remove the bar, unless someone can convince me otherwise.

This 1933 Jaegar is a pretty popular model. Surely there are some others who own them, or who have worked on them and maybe would have something to share. I'd really appreciate it.

with lots of Bass Love,Wayne

wayne holmes · #11 11-04-2009, 07:14 PM

correction- it's not a 1933 Jaegar- it's an early 1900's Lowendall- I think that I have eaten one too many bites of sawdust today-yes, I have a vacuum system.

**Matthew Tucker** · #12 11-04-2009, 09:45 PM

here's the Lowenthal patent I think http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4372189.pdf

Do you want to elaborate on your feelings about the Kasha bar? Why did you use it on the Jaegar?

wayne holmes · #13 11-04-2009, 10:28 PM

Thanks Matthew for researching the patent- I wonder if anyone has used this on a double bass, and if so, what was the result? I really appreciate you looking this up and sharing it with us all-

This Jaegar bass restoration was started by one of my mentors - George Hofer. Unfortunately, we lost George to an illness about two years ago. When I acquired his shop and instruments, this Jaegar was among his basses. This was his last bass that he worked on and had started on the Kasha bar(he thought that the Kasha bar worked well on some basses and was pretty excited about the Kasha bar)So, with the blueprints that he left me, I finished it. I was really pleased with the sound that this bass makes. Other basses that are in my inventory that have Kasha bars are too bright and twangy. I plan to change them out if the right string and sound post changes don't produce a more pleasing sound. I installed Evah Pirazzi strings(orchestral) on this Jaegar. It sounds great but I am not sure what other strings would produce. You might be able to click on Kasha bass bars for a double bass and see some pictures of it. Actually, I am not a real big fan of the Kasha bar, but, like George said - on some basses they are helpful. I don't want to turn this into a Kasha bar thread, but I would imagine that there would be some Luthiers in your area who would have a set of the Kasha bar blueprints. It's an interesting concept, but I think most would agree that it is hard to re-invent the wheel. It might be an interesting thread for you or someone to post, if it hasn't already been discussed, which would greatly surprise me.

Thanks again, Matthew.

ctregan · #14 11-05-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

I don't want to turn this into a Kasha bar thread, but I would imagine that there would be some Luthiers in your area who would have a set of the Kasha bar blueprints. It's an interesting concept, but I think most would agree that it is hard to re-invent the wheel. It might be an interesting thread for you or someone to post, if it hasn't already been discussed, which would greatly surprise me.

I did a Kasha on a plywood top once.

Since plywood tops are of uniform thickness and some times weak in the middle, my thought was, a kasha bar might help distribute the string tension over a larger area and help strengthen the flimsy top. It worked, but putting all those little sticks together is a pain; its much easier installing one single bass bar.

My guess is, Kasha bars might be too much bulk, for a carved top.

wayne holmes · #15 11-05-2009, 07:29 AM

Thanks ctregan, okay, lets just turn this into a discussion on the Kasha.

How did it sound-change it much? Is that an inlay? - if so, it is the biggest one that I have ever seen. You did some very clean work on this top.

I have decided to install a new conventional bar. I know that it will turn out good, but the Kasha has too much chance for the twang thing.

Thanks to all - I am out of here.

With lots of bass love,

Wayne

wayne holmes · #16 11-06-2009, 12:32 AM

Arnold- what do you think of the Kasha single one bar with two humps? The blueprint that I have only shows one like the picture that ctregan posted. The modified(I guess) version that George Hofer began to install in the 1933 Jaegar actually ended up with 5 pieces. He left the original bar in, ie, about 14 inches of , carved two humps in it and then I added the upper and lower arms or legs or whatever they are called. Those of you who knew George know that he knew something about the sound of the double bass. I remember him telling me that he had installed the Kasha in a few basses before, and was very excited about it. I have to say with those EP strings it has a wonderful sound in every respect. The sound is deep, loud, resonating, and warm for a 3/4 size flat back bass. I also installed an inlay at the sound post location and experimented with the SP. With the SP about 10mm south of the conventional spot, the EP strings, the Kasha bar, and the best French bridge available to us now days, I really can't think of an early 1900's Czech or German that I have played that I thought sounded as good. I'm thinking that I will install a conventional bar, like I said earlier, but would like to hear about the single bar Kasha with two humps first. I know that you said that you would go with the conventional, but I am wondering what your thoughts are from your question about the Kasha single bar? I am now thinking that a single bar Kasha with two humps might be a good route to take if I talk myself out of the conventional. Maybe someone can explain the two humps vs the conventional bar.

**Matthew Tucker** · #17 11-06-2009, 01:07 AM

I thought you wuz outta here?

I believe the two humps are supposed to allow the MIDDLE of the bar to be able to flex longitudinally. But since I've never seen or heard a kasha bar, I really don't know anyfink.

arnoldschnitzer · #18 11-06-2009, 06:44 AM

I have installed several Kasha-style bass bars that are single-piece. That is, a single bass bar which is lower under the bridge foot and has two humps. The result is generally better bottom end, but with an increase in wolf tones. It can be a very useful tool for getting some oomph out of a smaller bass that will mainly be played pizz.

wayne holmes · #19 11-06-2009, 07:57 AM

Matthew- it's hard to get out when there are so many interesting things being said- I guess that I just want to hear more about the the Kasha bar since the post has moved in that direction.

Arnold-I just might end up trying the single bass bar. You want to elaborate on how you minimized the wolf tones?

james condino · #20 11-06-2009, 06:59 PM

Can you reccommend any specific place for someone to read up on the Kasha system as applied to basses? I spent about a dozen years chasing the Kasha system as applied to acoustic guitars, and sat in on a few of Richard Schneider's workshops on the subject. I've got to admit, in all of that time working out different ideas with the system of my own and also playing dozens of other builder's instruments based on Kasha's ideas, and no matter how much I enjoyed the intellectual side of the system, I never built or played a single one that could even come close to the voice of a beat up old D18.

j.
www.condino.com