Bass Kit

[RCWilliams]

Hello all,

I am thinking about developing a double bass kit. there are lots of guys who are interested in building their own bass, but the starting of the project can be a bit daunting.

It would be reasonable to pick a basic model and develop the kit to include top and back plates fully carved and rough graduated with purfling channel and f-holes cut in the top. edges formed and rough graduated with and even graduation. the back could be either carved or flat back, rib stock would be flat needing to be bent, it would include an inside form which would be set up with spacers, blocks would be rough shaped, and the scroll would be rough carved with room for personal touches in the winding.

With an even rough grad on the plates there would be enough material for personalizing the arches.

the purchaser would then have to do the final shaping of the arches if desired, and final graduation of the plates fitting the blocks to the form, bending the ribs and fitting to the blocks, and form, fitting the linings. gluing the purfling fitting the bassbar gluing the top and back plates to the ribs, cutting the neck mortise and setting the neck after finish carving the scroll and neck etcetera ad infenitum...

so... am I nuts or is this kind of thing some of you would like to see? I would like to hear your thoughts on this idea. so please, let me have it!

[Heifetzbass]

I for one would be interested!

Would plates be joined, etc? I can only imagine the size of the box!

I think a lot would depend on the price point business wise...

Best of luck,
Brian

[powerbass]

I am contemplating making my own bass. Your kit idea is interesting. I spent many years making production and custom furniture. Tricky thing is for you to make a product/kit that isn't cost prohibitive - that means all parts you make plus any shipping costs of the whole package. Including an inside and outside form is expensive as well as bulky to ship. If I were starting this business I would provide the ribs already made via laminates these would be easy to ship since the parts would nest. Making laminated ribs would require a minimal investment on your part of some veneer, a vacuum clamping system and some forms. Making forms is not difficult, each bass design requires 3 forms - top bout, C bout and lower bout. 1/16" veneer is available as well as very highly figured veneer - fancy veneers may appeal to the builder. You could include all solid wood blocks and bindings pre made as well as a full size drawing for the inside/outside forms as well as construction details - all this can be done via CAD and a large plotter. While you are at it a good CNC shop can carve your top/back plates out of solid wood in a matter of minutes reducing the overall manufacturing costs and production time. I could keep going. Figuring out how to make wooden stuff quickly, efficiently and high quality was my job like I said.

[RCWilliams]

My thought was to essentially generate semi finished parts that had room for minor mods based on preference ie. precarved top plate with say 12mm even graduation. that would allow for adding more re-curve or thinning to your own preferred graduation thicknesses. since 95% of the wood used i the bass ends up as shavings, shipping costs are reduced. I guess I should post some pics of what the roughparts I am talking about look like. the forms I use to develop a new instrument model are cut from mdf and are basically disposable. once we start to produce the instrument, we make outside forms as they are a bit faster to use. I'll see if I can figure out how to post pictures on this sight. I haven't managed it yet.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

To post pics, click the 'Go Advanced' button and then click the paperclip at the top. This will bring up a window and from there you just browse your computer and upload pics.

I will be watching this to see how your plan develops. What type of bass do you invision initially?

[RCWilliams]

There are some good books out there on building a bass, one possibility would be to choose a book and use the model used in the book. I am pretty sure that the end result would cost more than a cbo, but all factors need to be explored. it would need to be cost effective for me to do it, I'm just looking for new markets to explore.

[james condino]

RC:

I can see how making the semi machined parts available would have market potential, but I'd be surprised if you can pricepoint an entire kit in a way that people will be able to afford one. Are we talking about decent seasoned materials that are cnc'd in your US production center, or just unseasoned cheap timers roughed out by 11 year old Chinese girls on the other side of the planet?

Over two decades of teaching lutherie, one of the common themes that I run into with new or aspiring builders is funding. A lot of them don't have the cash for a high quality instrument, so they buy into the misconception that it will be much cheaper to build one. ( The reality is that you'd be better off getting a job at McDonalds and save up for a new bass, rather than thinking the 1000+ hours it will take you plus materials will be some kind of deal). Given that, I don't think there is much market potential for a kit that invollves a couple thousand dollars worth of materials plus your machining time plus a reasonable markup as a seller.

I do think that you might have better luck offering the individual parts for people doing partial builds or learning to restore. if you've already got a nice cnc setup, there is a reasonable demand right now for people who offer high quality plate carving services for F5 mandolins. I'd also like to see a nice grade replacement carved neck blank available from a US source, rather than the Ingle-junk, expensive European, or wet worm riddled Asian junk. That might be a good place to start and test the market.

I'd love to have someone cnc my backs, but I'd never dream about giving up hand carving the spruce tops- that is may favorite part of the build! As a general rule, I'm strongly against any students working with kit instruments. Sure, you can wind up with a reasonable finished instrument, but what do you learn? You learn how to assemble a kit, not build an instrument. Carving fine materials into a beautiful arch by hand, the nuances of coaxing a subtle compound bend from a formerly flat piece of figured maple, feeling the runout as you run a sharp handplane across the grain. All of those things that take time and effort to master are also the ones that make a difference in the final product and your skills as a luthier...

Sorry for the rant; ' tried to offer up a couple of perspectives.

j.

[james condino]

Originally Posted by powerbass

While you are at it a good CNC shop can carve your top/back plates out of solid wood in a matter of minutes

This isn't very accurate. While there are some machines that have the potential to carve a plate the size of a double bass very fast, they tend to be so expensive that they are used for more cost effective production items and processes. You generally can't just walk in and rent time on a half million dollar machine like you'll find in the Paul Reed Smith factory cranking out 100 bodies per day, just to run a half dozen specialized bass plates a week.

I'll occaisionaly use an outsource shop to rough carve the plates for F5 mandolins. Granted, he is a small production shop and only has a $50k machine, but it takes approx. 2 1/2 hours per plate to do the inside and outside of the plates and get high quality surface resolution such that the end results are within my specified tolerances. If I was going to all of the trouble to have bass plates cnc'd, I'd ask for the top to be VERY close to final specs and have the purfling channel done, then do the final graduations from the inside and recurve perimeter. That is still a lot of work.

Again, not trying to be a grouch; I've been involved with this technology from several different perspectives for over a decade and while it is nice, it still takes a LOT of work and time. When you log onto youtube and see the European helmet manufacturer carve a Star Wars looking full face helmet, complete with venting, logos, and graphics from one solid billet of aluminum, you need to understand that this is the top of the current technology using million dollar machinery, not the day to day woodworking trenches stuff. The main reason those guys can afford to make the chi-chi stuff for the consumer market is because the primary use of the technology is department of defense work that pays the big bills.

j.

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by james condino

As a general rule, I'm strongly against any students working with kit instruments. Sure, you can wind up with a reasonable finished instrument, but what do you learn? You learn how to assemble a kit, not build an instrument. Carving fine materials into a beautiful arch by hand, the nuances of coaxing a subtle compound bend from a formerly flat piece of figured maple, feeling the runout as you run a sharp handplane across the grain. All of those things that take time and effort to master are also the ones that make a difference in the final product and your skills as a luthier...

Sorry for the rant; ' tried to offer up a couple of perspectives.

j.

What James described is the main reason why I was never attracted to kits. Before I built my bass, I was offered a 7/8 bass kit and I turned it down. I didn't think it would have been as enjoyable as taking a piece of tree and turning it into an upright bass. Carving the scroll was the most enjoyable part for me. Carving the top was a close second.

That is just my personal take, I'm sure that many others would prefer to start with a kit.

George

[powerbass]

The matter of minutes part for cnc carved top was an exaggeration but a cnc will carve a top in a very short period of time compared to hand carving - the dimensions 2'x4' for a plate is not that large. I rent a wood shop from guy who recently purchased a decent cnc that can scan objects, creating a digital file as well as carve in 3 axes -right/left and up/down. He is using it to shape large organic shapes/wood sculpture parts for a custom furniture maker. Bear in mind that spruce, cedar or similar top wood is pretty soft so feed and cutting rates may be quick using larger diameter cutters - if you did some initial roughing out w/other tools etc the cnc time could be lowered still. The plates could be left thick for gradation purposes. The downside of cnc is just the investment in set up and creating the files via autocad or whatever. There may be other issues w/cnc carving I don't have experience with such as if you remove a lot of wood in a very short period you could cause the wood to crack, twist etc since the moist inner wood would be suddenly exposed to air and drying. The slower hand carving process allows the wood to dry and settle gradually. I defer to James when it comes to building instruments, my experience is w/custom furniture production.

[RCWilliams]

if this actually worked here is a picture of the basic inside form. this one was intended to be easily reusable and has detachable rims so it can be collapsed and removed after the linings are glued in and one plate glued to the ribs. the spacers just slip together and fit into slots. with a disposable form there is no detachable rim and if necessary, the form is cut to be removed.



I will try to take some other pics soon

[Rvl]

I would be interested in a kit(theoretically)
But international shipping (for me) , would probably be too expensive
I enjoyed making a ukulele and mandolin kit
But not sure I could handle a bass

Thanks

Robert VanLane

[powerbass]

IMHO the most crucial time consuming and difficult parts to make are the neck, plates and bouts. The form material (mdf, chipboard, plywood) can be purchased locally or scavenged from a dumpster and cut out w/a jigsaw not so with the other bass parts which require more precision to make. The smaller the package the less expensive the kit is to purchase and to ship. Let the builder make the form, that is a relatively easy process. Stewart-MacDonald has guitar kits that include prebent and shaped parts the builder essentially assembles the guitar, does any fancy work, sets it up and finishes it. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Aco...uitar_Kit.html. A bass kit similar to these guitar kits might work

[RCWilliams]

on smaller instruments I actually cut out the form with the blocks glued in... makes getting the ribs right easier, since the top and back on a bass frequently have a different outline, and bottom to top the ribs are tapered, and the form is the easiest and cheapest part to cut, its an easy option. if you are trimming the plate to the ribs once glued the form is less critical to overhang of the edge. if the plate is completely cut, it is a little different.

the two most expensive things in the kit thing are 1 cost of development, and 2 cost of materials. if there is not much interest in the project, the only thing to be gained is the mental exercise of researching it. but I think that is worth while at the very least.

as to what one would learn from building such a kit, ( an earlier question) the finish carving of the neck and scroll, finger planing the outer surface and learning how to clean up a surface with out changing its shape, learning how to graduate a plate, learning the feel of the plate and how it flexes, as it changes, how to bend ribs and fit them to a form how to glue in purfling and how to clean it up with a gouge, how to cut the neck mortise and set a neck. how to plane a finger board, how to cut and fit a bass bar, how to glue and clean up plates to the ribs. optional things might be fixing mistakes, gluing cleats, varnish, ground (I believe in a good ground making a difference in sound) and finally... setup

the primay thing I was thinking is that for someone wanting to take out the heavy labor, it mostly removes the grunt work, and for those who don't have experience with the kind of shapes that are in these instruments, it gives them experience with reasonably shaped plates to start.

when I came into this business I came to it via custom wood working and design. I had to retrain my eye to see the curves and be able to really work with them. it probably took a while to really get it all defined in my head. so the more one works with good shapes the easier it becomes.

just some of m notions.