Bass specialist or general string luthier?

[Monkey]

Please excuse me if this topic has been covered before. I searched, and didn't find anything.

I need work done on my '50's Englehardt; installation of new endpin and bridge adjusters, regluing loose fingerboard, and checking the soundpost. I am mostly a slab player, but want to dive back into the DB.

There is a reputable violin repair shop in my city, and he says he works on basses as well. There is a repair shop about an hour away that has experienced bassists on staff. Taking my bass to the shop in town would be much more convenient (I have a day job, am newly engaged, just bought a house, etc.).

Do you think a more bass-oriented luthier would do a substantially better job than one who works mostly on violins for the types of repairs I need? Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[AZNBassist]

I'd say definitely go to the more specialized bass luther if you can. Most general string shop luthers tend to treat the basses as oversized violins/cellos (not saying this one will, but in general), so it'd be much better for your bass to have someone who specializes in working with basses look at it.

[Jake deVilliers]

I agree with AZN.
Basses are more different from violins than similar, and in my experience you're better off with somebody who can actually play the instrument they're working on.

[Sam Sherry]

Violin-guys aren't set up for basses. They don't have the benches. They don't have the clamps. More importantly, many luthier-tricks and refinements don't work the same way on The Big Girl. Some of those tricks involve doing good work and saving clients' money. Some involve simply doing good work.

The other point is that many older basses have had crappy work done to them at some point in the past. Whichever luthier touches it last "owns" all the work as far as the next buyer, and the next repair-guy, are concerned. So if you go to somebody who isn't a bass-guy and you need repair later -- a guaranty, in the long run -- then you may find later that the only option Luthier #2 will give you is The Big Expensive Job That Makes Everything Right.

What's an afternoon's travel compared to years of happy ownership?

[Don Higdon]

When you fill in your profile, don't forget to say where you are.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I agree and preach the Bass-only Luthier in general but there are some that work on all instruments.

I have had a few restorations done by Peter Eibert in NY that were fine and he is not a Bass-Only Luthier. Also, Paul Biase in NYC who 'works on' and 'deals in' all of the String Family is a Bassist himself and does work on Basses all the time as well.

Now, the 'new breed' of guys out there like Jeff and Arnold are doing a few things to higher standards. With a Bass like the one mentioned above, I don't see it necessary to find a specialist in Basses with such a common type instrument if that shop already works on Basses along with the other String Family instruments.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

I agree with AZN.
Basses are more different from violins than similar, and in my experience you're better off with somebody who can actually play the instrument they're working on.

While I agree with you that it is generally better to have the work done by someone who is a player of the instrument, I take issue with the idea that basses "are more different from violins than similar". Would you mind pointing out where the similarity ends and the big differences begin other than size?

My early training was from a master violin maker and I find that there is very little that I learned about violins that does not directly apply to basses. Many of the luthiers who now specialize in basses began their training working in violin shops. While there are certainly violin shops that (still) look down on basses, there are also a number of very good primarily violin luthiers who also do excellent work on basses. If I were going to catagorize my repair shop preferences by groups, I would (1) go to a bass specialist, (2) go to a violin shop. A distant (3) would be guitar shops.

[forester]

"My early training was from a master violin maker and I find that there is very little that I learned about violins that does not directly apply to basses." 10-4 in my limited experience this is quite true. at this point I have come to the conclusion that with the violin I can only hear and feel the subtle changes... with the viola,cello and bass i can feel ,hear and SEE the dynamics going on...(am I nuts?)
Monkey2 the glue on the fingerboard should be about set up by the time the endpin is in sound post checked and the bridge adjusters are installed. No problem for a competent string tech. Put the $$$ in that engagement ring and mortgage!

[Jake deVilliers]

Well Bob, this guitar shop is a great place to bring your bass.

Maybe I should have specified a location, although I thought that it would be a given.

Here in the Vancouver area, I have had several customers bring me basses that the violin shops around here deemed too plebian for their elevated selves to work on. Loose bass bar, plywood bass, "sorry we don't do that kind of work".

The local violin shops also are better at setting up instruments to play arco than pizzicato, and there are some things you can do differently to optimize a bass for pizz that they don't seem to be aware of.

Kansas City, different I'm sure, New York too, but that's not where I live.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Well Bob, this guitar shop is a great place to bring your bass.

Judging by your past posts, I'm sure your shop is fine. However, the great majority of guitar shops that I've seen shouldn't be allowed to touch a bass or any other violin family instrument. Most of the operators have no training what so ever in violin family instruments and probably don't think they need it. I've had to straighten tons of extremely poor work from these shops. Most of these shops don't even know what hide glue is or have any idea how to use it. White glue, epoxy, gorilla glue, super glue and anything else "permanent" are typical of what I see coming out of these shops. That is why I place guitar shops a distant 3rd on my preferred list for repairing basses. Sorry, but I would have to consider you and your shop the exception rather than the rule of the work from "guitar shops" in general.

Now, what about "Basses are more different from violins than similar"?

[Jake deVilliers]

Thanks Bob. I don't disagree about most 'guitar' shops, in fact I don't even think you should take your guitar there!

I think that the difference between arco and pizz is huge.
One style is able to energise and even benefit from mass and the other sure comes alive when you minimise mass. In this way, I think that DB has as much in common with acoustic guitar as it does with violin.

In the same way that I can make a later D-18 sound like an early instrument by lightening & tuning the components in the tone path, I can turn a blobby sounding bass into a punchy, responsive, crisply articulate by following the same principles.

That Kasha Bass Bar drawing you sent me looks a lot like the X-bracing used by Noble in his amazing flattop guitars.

As a disciple of Chuck Traeger's, I have tried many of his suggestions about getting more and better sound from basses and I'm pretty sure most of them would be counter-productive in a violin.

I've never heard about a luthier putting a maple soundpost in a fiddle, but it works surprisingly well in a plywood bass.

Its an interesting subject Bob, and I want to hear your thoughts on the difference between arco & pizz tone production when you have time. I've been reading as much as I can but I just don't have as much time for that as I'd like to!

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

I think that the difference between arco and pizz is huge.

One style is able to energise and even benefit from mass and the other sure comes alive when you minimise mass. In this way, I think that DB has as much in common with acoustic guitar as it does with violin.

I couldn't disagree more. You are referring to an issue of style or use, not the instrument itself. While you may not hear a lot of violin pizzicato, it certainly is a part of classical music literature and it is also used in other styles of music. From an acoustics prospective, an acoustic guitar is basically a very good Helmholtz resonator chamber with strings. If you were to measure the internal volume of a doublebass body, you would see that the body is not nearly large enough to be an efficient resonator for the fundamental frequencies it produces. It is the soundpost/bass bar combination (not found in guitars) that allows the relatively small chamber to produce the sound that it does. No different than a violin, but certainly different than a guitar. String tension and downward pressure on the bridge are much higher on both violins and basses than that found on an acoustic guitar. Violin and Basses can and do use bows to produce sound...

In the same way that I can make a later D-18 sound like an early instrument by lightening & tuning the components in the tone path, I can turn a blobby sounding bass into a punchy, responsive, crisply articulate by following the same principles.

OK, which common components do you lighten and tune on a doublebass that are not also parts of a violin?

That Kasha Bass Bar drawing you sent me looks a lot like the X-bracing used by Noble in his amazing flattop guitars.
.

And how many Doublebass Kasha Bass Bars have you run into on the basses that come into your shop? While it is an interesting concept, the only one I've ever seen was 15-20 years ago at Hammond Ashley's shop in Seattle. Kasha doublebass bars haven't exactly taken over in the world of bass making.

As a disciple of Chuck Traeger's, I have tried many of his suggestions about getting more and better sound from basses and I'm pretty sure most of them would be counter-productive in a violin.

Chuck is a great experimenter and most of the suggestions are for improving the sound of less than wonderful basses. I can't think of any of his suggestions that would be counter productive except for the drumstick endpin rod that a violin doesn't happen to need. Perhaps Chuck Traeger's suggestions would not be as noticeable or desirable on a violin, but that may be simply because most violins we hear played are better made or setup better than many of the doublebass in use, especially if you are including inexpensive plywoods. A0-B0 matching certainly works the same on both violins and basses. Reducing the mass or changing the density of a bridge works on both violins and doublebasses. Did I say that both violins and doublebasses use bows and rosin?

I've never heard about a luthier putting a maple soundpost in a fiddle, but it works surprisingly well in a plywood bass..

Maybe not maple, but I know many violin makers who will try many different density soundposts and bridges to fine tune the sound. Come to think about it -I've seen a couple of (very bad sounding) violins made from plywood and wouldn't be surprised if a maple soundpost showed up in one of them.

Its an interesting subject Bob, and I want to hear your thoughts on the difference between arco & pizz tone production when you have time. I've been reading as much as I can but I just don't have as much time for that as I'd like to.

Some basses seem better suited for arco and some seem better suited for pizzicato. However, most of the time it's just a matter of setup and/or how well the setup was performed by the luthier.

[Monkey]

Thank you all for the collective wisdom. While I am sure the general string luthier in my city would do a quality job, I decided to go the extra mile and take it to a bass specialist.

Even though my bass is an inelegant and inexpensive plywood model, it has served me well and I am attached to it. A few extra miles is a small price to pay for quality treatment.

I can't wait to hear how it sounds with Dominants and a tune up! (It currently wears Helicore Hybrids).

Thanks again!

[Monkey]

I ended up taking my bass to The Loft Violin Shop in Columbus, Ohio. I had bridge adjusters installed, fingerboard replaned and glued down, new endpin installed, soundpost adjusted and Dominants installed.

I am so glad I took my bass to a specialist! First of all, when I bought my bass in 1984, I was told that it was a 1950's Englehardt, and the luthier (Sid) told me that it was actually a Kay. I looked up the serial number on a Kay website, and it was evidently made in 1945.

Sid is a bassist, so it was great to talk to him about strings, setup, etc. I was very happy with the work, which only took a week.

The Dominants sound beautiful, and I am thrilled to have my baby back in top form. I've actually been so inspired that I contacted a teacher at the university where I work, and for the first time in my double bass playing life, I am going to study with a teacher!!

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses.