Bass Top Plate Wood

powerbass · #1 12-21-2010, 04:44 PM

I'm looking for feedback about bass top plate wood. I have an older Czech ply bass that I want to fix up as a means to gain experience with plate carving. I would like to replace the ply top plate with a carved top, I don't want to invest in expensive wood. I live in New England and have access to some old growth reclaimed hemlock and pine mostly flat sawn - old construction/building materials. I can also get eastern spruce all for free. Has anyone used hemlock for a top? What about flatsawn wood?

bigolbassguy · #2 12-21-2010, 06:37 PM

I've never carved a top out of anything, but If I could get free, well-aged spruce... ?

MIKMAN · #3 12-22-2010, 02:41 AM

Carving a bass top plate means a considerable effort and a lot of time. IMHO it is better to buy a good spruce tonewood from a reliable supplier and finish your project with a beautiful hybrid in your hands.
Mike

1st Bass · #4 12-22-2010, 07:36 AM

If that spruce is in the form of heavy beams (I have seen such) that could be resawn into bookmatched sections two inches thick, 14" wide, and 50" long, say, I would certainly take a look at it. Free wood is always good.

A good top costs $450 or more, depending on where you get it. I have gotten good spruce from unexpected places. I was in a wood store (Crosscut Hardwoods, to those from the Portland area), and suddenly noticed that some of their CVG Spruce seemed to be in matching planks, a full 1" thick. I looked more closely, and could determine that the 1" planks had been resawn from 2" planks of rough CVG Sitka spruce, and that they had, in effect, bookmatched whole ten-foot sections for me. I grabbed the best pair I could see, and went home with a big grin. They were wide enough for cello-tops, but not basses. Not thick enough for a bass anyway. Do I ordinarily buy tops that way? No, but I certainly would not pass it up if it happens again.

tstone · #5 12-22-2010, 09:52 AM

What is desired in an acoustic instrument soundboard is material that is very light and very stiff, or, more specifically, material that has a high ratio of stiffness to density. Spruce is about the best material based on that criterion, with Western Red Cedar also quite good. There are of course other factors, like sizes available, appearance, resistance to cracking, finish adhesion, etc. It's impossible to generalize about "pine" because there are so many varieties, with large variation in properties. I don't think hemlock would be a good choice.

I would absolutely stay away from a flat grain top. However, if the lumber available can be resawn into good-size quarter-sawn planks, you could edge-glue pieces together to get a blank large enough for a bass top. That's how piano soundboards are made. And, of course, many basses and other string instruments. have 'wings' at the outer edges of the lower bout. It wouldn't be as attractive as a two-piece bookmatched top, but if it's an experiment to gain experience, you might consider it.

james condino · #6 12-22-2010, 05:10 PM

If this is the first top that you'll be carving, the cost of your materials is almost irrelevant. You'll likely spend 150 hours or more on the whole process, so one of the more important things is to objectively look at your process and methodology. If you lack the tools and skills to make a single well executed joint in a nicer grade bookmatched top, then what will the results look like and perform if the top is made from multiple substandard jointed pieces? Is the extra effort required to make seven perfect joints out of lower grade material enough to offset the price difference? I know- I've built 100s of beautiful soundboards for several different families of instruments from up to as many as 18 different pieces of salvaged wood all glued up into one top and also from giant one piece boards that represented hundreds of years of growth across the rings. Each had its own set of goals and reasons for choosing why. Price rarely figures into the equation, especially when I only buy a few at a time. Quality, strength, and tone were always my first considerations. Do you want one of the multiple laminate joints to wind up right under the soundpost and also on either side of the bassbar so that everything cracks to pieces 18 months later? You'll have a pretty sad look on your face if all that hard work tumbles apart like a pinata left alone in a room full of sixth graders jacked up on sugar....

A very nice set of top wedges in quarter sawn domestic spruce can be had for about $250, less if you put in some effort- I've seen them them as low as $50 a piece for a ten set minimum order earlier this year. (!!!!!) You can chose from a number of different species and you can regularly run into nice finds if you are patient and put a little work into the process. Buy your woods from the people who saw them or from specialty places like Bruce Harvey on Orcas Island. Every time a piece of spruce changes hands, the price doubles ( at a minimum), so when you buy from a big catalog mail order company in a large metropolitain area, your are paying full retail. The only time I pay much higher prices is when I can hand select through hundreds of different sets that have all been air dried for 10-30 years or more- old well seasoned wood does change the rules a bit. There are a couple of dozen folks in this country who do nothing but specialize in very nice tonewoods- their names are no secret almost every good builder or repairperson here can offer them up.

The other thing that every one of us is lucky to have available in this country is that for the price of a $20 US Forest service firewood permit, you can fill up the back of your pickup truck with very nice soundboards. I've done it in the past and will be doing it again soon. The species vary from the different regions, but you have plenty to chose from. Go on a "wood expedition". You'll learn an incredible amount during the process, you'll be well within budget, and if you do your homework and put some effort into it, you can turn that $20 initial investment into $10k by selling off some of your hard earned work to the rest of us. There is beautiful sitka in the northwest, fine engleman in the rockies and mountain states, I can ride my bicycle from my back door to some of the finest stands of red spruce on the continent where I live. Other places have black, white, and lutz spruces, cedars, I've also seen firs and pines used.

Go for quality and well quartered, first assessing the individual boards and then figure how many sections you'll need. How do these recovered boards sound when you thunk on them? I've seen a lot of beautiful looking boards that were dead as a doorknob, and others that rang like a church bell with clarity, sonority, and huge resonant sustain, but were cosmetically imperfect so they were very affordable.

j.

bigolbassguy · #7 12-22-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

tumbles apart like a pinata left alone in a room full of sixth graders jacked up on sugar....

lmao james.

james condino · #8 12-22-2010, 09:27 PM

What does that mean? I understand the acronym, but don't have a clue what the intention is.....sorry if I'm a little slow. I'm pretty good at carving spruce, but not always top of the class on the computer....

I was just trying to offer a bit of perspective. Even when I pay top dollar for high quality well aged spruce, it does not always cooperate. Some days its the joint, some days the grain, always something different. Last week I pulled out what I thought were the two finest billets of red spruce in my shop that I'd been coveting for quite a while. Perfect in every visibly way, test pieces seemed incredible, and they rang like magic. They were part of about 40 that I hand selected from almost 5000 from the late Ted Davis. Damned if both of them didn't wind up having huge inclusions - silver dollar sized-showing up when I got them close to final dimension- now they are firewood, cut and seasoned since October 1990. I paid a fair price too. No asking for a refund from Ted.... I swear I could hear him laughing at me later that day...

'Sure glad I didn't have a whole lot of work tied up into a half dozen hand cut joints, each painstakingly glued up with a novice's hide glue struggles in a cold shop in the winter.

Everyone works within some sort of budgetary constraints. Of all the places on an instrument where you get a high return for your dollar efforts, I'd focus on a nice top and settle for a boring multi-piece back and side set. My next bass build will be with a very nice seasoned top (if you can, buy two from the same sequence- one as a spare) and pretty visually boring poplar back / sides, but it is all for tone.

j.

scotty77 · #9 12-23-2010, 12:14 AM

lmao means "laughing my @ss off" James. Computer slang...Well said on your comments by the way.

George700DL · #10 12-23-2010, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

Do you want one of the multiple laminate joints to wind up right under the soundpost and also on either side of the bassbar so that everything cracks to pieces 18 months later? You'll have a pretty sad look on your face if all that hard work tumbles apart like a pinata left alone in a room full of sixth graders jacked up on sugar....
j.

I'm approaching the 1st birthday for my bass, and so far, no sign of the pinata effect on my 16 piece top

, which I carved over the course of about 3 weekends.

Thanks for the reminder about the firewood license James - I've been meaning to look into that! What kinda keeps me from jumping on that opportunity is the fact that I won't be able to actually use that wood for a few years, and at the moment I'm running out of space to store it.

George

powerbass · #11 12-23-2010, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the feedback. What got me going on using local/native wood was I recently had the opportunity to play a Prescott bass that has a pine top - granted it is probably old growth when it was made in 1830's - large white pine trees were plentiful in New Hampshire back then. There is a local lumber yard here as well as yards scattered throughout the region that specialize in reclaimed wood. Torn down old barns, mills and factories have very large post/beams that could yield some interesting wood for bass tops etc. I see redoing this top as a learning process and less about "ideal tone wood" selection. I worked for a furniture maker who purchased a whole log of Gaboon ebony which was wrapped in thick plastic. He sat on it for years then decided to unwrap and cut it up. When the plastic came off and he started resawing in he found that it is hollow through the center leaving only a fraction of usable wood.

George700DL · #12 12-23-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerbass

Thanks for the feedback. What got me going on using local/native wood was I recently had the opportunity to play a Prescott bass that has a pine top - granted it is probably old growth when it was made in 1830's - large white pine trees were plentiful in New Hampshire back then. There is a local lumber yard here as well as yards scattered throughout the region that specialize in reclaimed wood. Torn down old barns, mills and factories have very large post/beams that could yield some interesting wood for bass tops etc. I see redoing this top as a learning process and less about "ideal tone wood" selection. I worked for a furniture maker who purchased a whole log of Gaboon ebony which was wrapped in thick plastic. He sat on it for years then decided to unwrap and cut it up. When the plastic came off and he started resawing in he found that it is hollow through the center leaving only a fraction of usable wood.

For me, there is certain magic in using reclaimed wood.

Also, I hear that there are some pretty awesome basses with slab-cut tops out there.

George

james condino · #13 12-23-2010, 05:33 PM

I support the idea of reclaimed woods 100%. If you search around a bit, you'll see that I've built one of my all time personal favorite instruments using 99% recycled materials, published articles about them, and entered them in international recycling design competitions. You can read about it in this issue:

http://www.luth.org/backissues/al89-92/al90.htm

There is a certain mystique about using materials a second time around. My main point is that it is hard enough making a two piece top for the novice.

BTW, if you run into any of those nice high grade spruce recycled beams, I'm always looking for them in mandolin and mandola sizes....

j.

arnoldschnitzer · #14 12-23-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstone

I would absolutely stay away from a flat grain top.

Why? Many, many old Italian basses were made with flat sawn wood.

powerbass · #15 12-23-2010, 06:40 PM

Now the thread is getting some where when James and Arnold chime in. I have made quite a bit of furniture and got to see how wood moves and behaves in this regard - 28"+ wide solid wood table tops were a concern and had to be attached with attention to seasonal movement, a bass baffles me. How does a hybrid stay together with a solid wood top and ply back, one side moves and the other stays put? Arnold what are your thoughts about using flat sawn - I love quatersawn but finding qs larger than 8-10" might be a challenge. I spoke with one lumbar yard today that is in the next town - grumpy old wood guy, didn't want to give me the time of day, though he said he has some large Port orford cedar that may work. I'm going to visit him after the holidays

james condino · #16 12-24-2010, 01:05 AM

You should be able to find very nice sitka in the shipyards over on the coast. It is pretty common for them to have it in larger sizes. For mail order, check in with Pacific Rim tonewoods (google them)- earlier this year they had beautiful 8 year old sitka tops for $250 and under. I recently bought some very nice Engleman from Gary at Mountain Voice Tonewoods in Ontario. Anrold gave me his number as a suggestion. He was very nice to work with and his wood was nice. Bruce Harvey at Orcas Island Tonewoods has been my #1 spruce homeboy for two decades- usually twice the grade for half the price of anyone else in the country...

Don't rule out the salvaged stuff, just keep in mind it takes a lot of work. I made a mandolin back out of recycled 2x4s once. When I started out I figured it would be about 6 1/2 pieces to make it up. The wood was amazing, I was on a roll. After I processed everything to dimension, pulled out all of the knots and nail holes, It would up being 18 pieces over just 10 1/4 " width. That would make a bass back about 45 pieces....too much of a good thing. If you make a bass out of salvage, try for 3-4 sections. Be sure to make a full sized drawing of the top with the bassbar and soundpost locations first, so you can line up everything so they are not directly on a joint or weak section.

Ciao,

james

tstone · #17 12-24-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Why? Many, many old Italian basses were made with flat sawn wood.

The main reason I would cite is that for most species of wood, expansion/contraction in the tangential direction is about twice that in the radial direction, making the top more prone to cracking and/or failed glue joints.

I can't deny that many basses have been successfully built with flat-sawn tops. But statistically speaking, I would say quarter-sawn tops are a safer bet. One can certainly get wider planks from a given tree by flat-sawing, so one must ask, why has that practice not become standard practice?

arnoldschnitzer · #18 12-24-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstone

The main reason I would cite is that for most species of wood, expansion/contraction in the tangential direction is about twice that in the radial direction, making the top more prone to cracking and/or failed glue joints.

I can't deny that many basses have been successfully built with flat-sawn tops. But statistically speaking, I would say quarter-sawn tops are a safer bet. One can certainly get wider planks from a given tree by flat-sawing, so one must ask, why has that practice not become standard practice?

Yes, of course quartered wood will move less across its grain. But the OP was looking for locally available wood for a first-time project and should not count out flat-sawn wood. It's easier to find, and cheaper. Flat sawn tops are no more prone to cracking, though they should be built with bigger overhangs and glued on with fairly weak glue (as should all top tables). Yes, quartered top wood is the standard for violin-family instruments, and I think this is as much because of the look as for any other reason.

robobass · #19 12-25-2010, 10:46 AM

Just curious. What glues are used for this process, today and in the past? I've noticed that center seam separation seems to be much more common on backs than tops. Is it because of the wood type?

1st Bass · #20 12-25-2010, 02:45 PM

Has it also been on flat-back instruments that you noticed this?

They have a built-in problem, because, in the event of humidity changes, there is nowhere for the expansion to go; whereas in a carved (rounded) back, the arching can absorb a good deal of movement...beside the fact that there is no cross-bracing in a round-backed instrument to interfere with movement.

That is my understanding of it, at any rate-- I am sure there are folks here who can say more certainly what is going on, there.

Come to think of it, most of the separated center sea,s I have seen in violins have been the back, as well, so maybe it is something to do with the wood. :-)