Becoming a Luthier

[gbftats]

Any advice or reading material? I am already a business owner. I plan on retiring in roughly 30 years (Lord willing) and hopefully building some beautiful string instruments in all my spare time..

[MysterMunky]

i kinda fell into a job that required me to learn how to do repairs of all sorts on all instruments in the violin family. the only real way to learn is to apprentice under someone. look into people in your area what work on violins (or specifically basses if thats what you are looking for) and see if you can learn from them. its great to have a seasoned professional to guide you on the right path! since you are in california, what about the guys at lemur?

[gbftats]

Lemur would be great but its 7 hours away. I would have to find someone more in the stockton, sacramento, modesto area. Even then i could not devote more then a couple days a month to an apprenticeship. Between a family, and full time job not much time exists.

[1st Bass]

gbftats, check your private messages.

Guess I will put it here...

1. Start with violins-- much easier, in terms of learning principles, though far more demanding in terms of precision, etc. Much cheaper if you break a rib (and you will, most likely).
2. Get at least three books: Violin Making, Step by Step, by Henry Strobel; Chuck Traeger's double bass repair and set-up book
Setup and Repair of the Double Bass for Optimum Sound (I assume basses are where your heart is, since you are posting in a Double Bass forum) (both available at http://www.henrystrobel.com/); So you Want to Make a Double Bass, by Peter Chandler http://www.violins.ca/books/bass_making_book.html A fourth book, perhaps the best, but more costly, is The Art of Violin Making by Johnson and Courtnall...it has no pattern or plan, so you would need to get that separately.
3. Study the books, buy the tools Henry suggests (unless you have them already) and ask lots of questions, here.
4. Build a violin.
5. Attend a workshop in Claremont CA, with Michael Darnton teaching, to find out everything you did wrong on #1, and how to do it right on #2.
http://www.scvmw.com/
6. Rinse and repeat.
7. Repair is another issue. Hans Weisshaar's book is still the classic, though some of it is becoming anachronistic. Buy that book, and a bunch of broken e-bay fiddles, and practice on VSO-class instruments until you are competent to work on a good one.
8. Build a bass. :-)

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by gbftats

Even then i could not devote more then a couple days a month to an apprenticeship. Between a family, and full time job not much time exists.

Malcolm Gladwell wrote in his excellent book "The Tipping Point" about acquiring mastery of a skill. His contention is that it takes 10,000 hours of immersion in a task to become truly excellent at it. One either makes the time or re-prioritizes.

[1st Bass]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Malcolm Gladwell wrote in his excellent book "The Tipping Point" about acquiring mastery of a skill. His contention is that it takes 10,000 hours of immersion in a task to become truly excellent at it. One either makes the time or re-prioritizes.

So...if you really only want to be good at this in thirty years, you can only spend 6.43 hours a week at it, for those thirty years, to get in your 10K hours by that time. :-)

Or, you can spend 15 hours a week at it, evenings and weekends, and get yer 10,000 hours done in a mere 13 years, taking a few weeks off, here and there. Or, at 20 hours a week, you'll arrive at that magic number in just under ten years.

BTW, that "immersion" Arnold is talking about is immersion in good influence, not bad. Practice does not make perfect--practice only makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. Find a good teacher, even if you have to travel to get to him/her. It will really be worth it in the long run.

[SLivinghouse]

Jeff Sahs is in Sacramento (closer.). You might try contacting him at Jef Sahs violins. He's a bassist as well, and quiite good.

[powerbass]

I agree that it does take significant time and discipline to become very proficient (master) a craft. Being good or proficient at what interests you about instrument repair, design, construction is a good goal. Learning a new skill is a journey, a process. Start small, set reasonable expectations for achievement, find the best teachers/luthiers and learn to enjoy the process of learning.

[PaulCannon]

Working in a shop or apprenticing has got to be the most direct route for a beginner. It puts you right in the fire working with professionals who can show you how to do something right the first time through, without making as many costly mistakes in terms of time and materials. You would also have access to all the shop's tools and machines.

If the shop is busy enough, you wouldn't really need to work there for more than a few months before you could be ready to start working on your own.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

If the shop is busy enough, you wouldn't really need to work there for more than a few months before you could be ready to start working on your own.

I sincerely hope this comment was tongue-in-cheek. Imagine a mechanic with a few months' experience working on your spouse's car, or a school teacher with a few months' training under his belt instructing your children!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

So...if you really only want to be good at this in thirty years, you can only spend 6.43 hours a week at it, for those thirty years, to get in your 10K hours by that time. :-)

Or, you can spend 15 hours a week at it, evenings and weekends, and get yer 10,000 hours done in a mere 13 years, taking a few weeks off, here and there. Or, at 20 hours a week, you'll arrive at that magic number in just under ten years.

BTW, that "immersion" Arnold is talking about is immersion in good influence, not bad. Practice does not make perfect--practice only makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. Find a good teacher, even if you have to travel to get to him/her. It will really be worth it in the long run.

...or to quote Bartlett, "...practice, the results of which are known, makes better."

Let's not forget aptitude in this equation. The level of expertise that one individual might achieve over the course of those 10,000 hours might be quite different than that achieved by another individual.

[gbftats]

I appreciate everyone that has taken the time to help me out. I will definitely be getting those books when i have the extra money. It just so happens my wife plays the violin, so maybe she wont be quite so mad when she get showered with "gifts" from the workshop.

Thanks again, I will keep you all posted on my progress as it happens.

-Garrett

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by drurb

...or to quote Bartlett, "...practice, the results of which are known, makes better."

Let's not forget aptitude in this equation. The level of expertise that one individual might achieve over the course of those 10,000 hours might be quite different than that achieved by another individual.

Thank you! That is the first thing that popped into my mind - people do have different levels of aptitude toward different things, don't they? But I have not read that book, so I suspect the idea is covered there.

George

[Fletcher Lanning]

Originally Posted by drurb

...or to quote Bartlett, "...practice, the results of which are known, makes better."

Let's not forget aptitude in this equation. The level of expertise that one individual might achieve over the course of those 10,000 hours might be quite different than that achieved by another individual.

When you get to that point of expertise, I personally believe initial aptitude has little to do with the equation. In learning anything, aptitude will get you over some of the initial difficulty in learning the basics and might even help you figure out some very good skills, but the great luthiers (and great players for that matter) seem to all be great because they've expended a lot of energy learning their craft. As you practice more, the difference between those with aptitude and those without just gets smaller.

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by Fletcher Lanning

When you get to that point of expertise, I personally believe initial aptitude has little to do with the equation. In learning anything, aptitude will get you over some of the initial difficulty in learning the basics and might even help you figure out some very good skills, but the great luthiers (and great players for that matter) seem to all be great because they've expended a lot of energy learning their craft. As you practice more, the difference between those with aptitude and those without just gets smaller.

I'm not sure I buy that.

But here, this can be easily explained through a motivational poster: http://despair.com/incompetence.html

George

[forester]

coming up on 12,500* hrs...have clearly learned the meaning of the word luthier,and the reality in fact, that i will never become one. in spite of that i enjoy the work, and intend to fiddle around the craft untill death do us part.

*minimum requirements to post @ TB set-up/repair.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by forester

coming up on 12,500* hrs

*minimum requirements to post @ TB set-up/repair.

Boy, that would really change the tone in here!

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I sincerely hope this comment was tongue-in-cheek. Imagine a mechanic with a few months' experience working on your spouse's car, or a school teacher with a few months' training under his belt instructing your children!

I'm not suggesting you can open a shop so soon, just a little tinkering on the side. The OP sounded like he was interested in making something, and I don't see the harm in getting started after a few months learning basic concepts and tool control. I imagine it would be a long time until you've acquired the knowledge and proper tools to get the job done.

Then again, I only have 900 hours of experience. I'm not an expert, just a player who spent a summer on the other side of the counter. Best way to learn how to swim is to dive in, I think.

[arnoldschnitzer]

There is a huge difference between the experience needed to change strings and adjust a bridge on a school instrument, vs. that needed to perform neck grafts and install inlaid soundpost patches on a priceless 300-year-old Italian gem. To most people, the term "luthier" could cover either. But I think there is quite a knowledge and experience gap between a hobbyist/technician and a luthier capable of building and restoring fine basses. Call me a curmudgeon, but I find the notion of a person with a few months' experience calling himself a luthier offensive to me and my colleagues who have spent most of a lifetime learning and honing our luthiery skills. I encourage tinkering, as long as the tinkerer is realistic about his abilities and the tinkeree is not a valuable or irreplaceable instrument.

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

There is a huge difference between the experience needed to change strings and adjust a bridge on a school instrument, vs. that needed to perform neck grafts and install inlaid soundpost patches on a priceless 300-year-old Italian gem. To most people, the term "luthier" could cover either. But I think there is quite a knowledge and experience gap between a hobbyist/technician and a luthier capable of building and restoring fine basses. Call me a curmudgeon, but I find the notion of a person with a few months' experience calling himself a luthier offensive to me and my colleagues who have spent most of a lifetime learning and honing our luthiery skills. I encourage tinkering, as long as the tinkerer is realistic about his abilities and the tinkeree is not a valuable or irreplaceable instrument.

Completely agree. Sorry if my earlier comment was unclear, I wasn't suggesting it takes a few months to become a master luthier.

I've never referred to myself as a luthier. At best, I was a shop assistant. The most complicated stuff I was doing was planing fingerboards and fitting bridges. Nothing but respect for anyone that can do a flawless neck graft or top-off repair.