Bridge Brands - What are the real differences?

[David Potts]

Here in Australia I have only seen Bausch and Dresden bridges of the size my big bass needs. The existing bridge is doing a banana and I thought I would ask around about relative merits of other brands such as Despiau, Panpi and Aubert. You may know of others.

My current bridge, probably a Bausch, has feet 6 1/2 across, is 6 3/4 high and has a 2 3/4 high arch. There is a lot of wood and a rather squat arch. Perhaps a higher arch and less wood would drive the bass harder?

Are bridge feet that come down vertically on the belly 9Bausch)more efficient than those that angle down (Aubert)? What are the design principles of bridges? How do they work?

Help please!

DP

[Matthew Tucker]

How do you measure efficiency? If you mean, maximise transfer of string vibration to belly, then a harder, denser bridge wood will do this better. That usually means a more expensive blank. But a harder bridge may need to be thinner/higher in the legs to allow some lateral flexing to occur.

Part of a bridge's function is to dampen the vibrations in such a way as to filter and colour the sound, and this is surely where the different bridge shapes and the thickness of the top third will have an effect, all other things being equal. But what the effect is for any bass I think is difficult to generalise.

Personally I prefer the look of the Aubert or Despiau french shapes, they look more balanced and pleasing to my eye. The other plus for these shapes is they allow you to use a bridge-wing pickup such as the Bassmax. The belgian and german shapes don't really lend themselves to that.

[Jake deVilliers]

Yup, what he said.

[Martin Sheridan]

I've always liked the Panpi bridges that are made by Teller, but the last few years the quality has been inconsistent, so I'm mostly using Tellers. I don't like the Aubert bass bridges at all, not liking the design, and the Despiau and Auberts are too expensive for what you get.

For what it's worth: I read some time back that Sacconi, the well known violin restoration guru, preferred Teller bridges for the Stradivari violins he worked on.

Another area, I suppose, that is to each his own. The most import thing to me is the quality of the wood and the design (basic French). The Panpis often meet that criteria, but I recently order three of them, two 3/4 and one 1/2. The 3/4 for fine, but the half size had grain that was too wide.

[james condino]

Just like strings and setup, bridges seem to all have a slightly different effect on individual basses. Martin's idea of ordering several at a time and picking out the best blank is a good idea; I regularly do that with a lot of supplies.

Since we're talking bridges, has anyone had experience with the Moses carbon composite bridges? I had someone ask about them a while back and I've never had one in. I've seen a bit of activity recently from several other luthiers laminating in .015" carbon fiber sheets in their bridges. It works great for adding stiffness, but it is hard on your tools and I don't want to be anywhere near the dust.

j.

[David Potts]

Matthew, I never thought of the bridge acting as a sound filter in a positive sense. The Bausch and Dresden bridges have so much wood with low arches that I viewed them in the negative. Yet these are the only "over-size" bridges (5/4?) that I have found here. I did see one huge Aubert bridge once and for the right spread of feet it was so tall it was ridiculous.

Hard or soft wood aside I was wondering whether a high arched bridge with angled legs would be more efficient in transmitting energy than a squat bridge with vertical feet. I once asked Tom Martin to draw his ideal bridge shape.He outlined a bridge blank on a piece of paper and showed how he would modify it by taking away wood to better direct the vibrations down each leg. His diagram looked about half way between Dresden and Aubert.

Why is there a heart shape cut out of the top of the bridge? Is the reason shrouded in history, lost in time? Do the legs have to be flexible? Wouldn't this absorb power? Would angled straighter legs be less efficient on a highly arched belly than squat more vertical legs?

Given that a luthier has a wide range of bridge profiles to select from I guess his experience might guide him. Trouble is that experimenting, like with strings, is bloody expensive!!

Please keep educating me. I will try to attach a photo of my Vatiliotis bass, made as a 5 string but now working well as a 4.

DP

[David Potts]

This bass was made for me in 1992 by one of Australia's best and most prolific luthiers, C.A. "HarrY" Vatiliotis. He has made seven basses. I liked the first one so much ( a 4 string in 1989) that I commissioned the second in 1992.

DP

[Matthew Tucker]

What does Harry say about bridge shapes?

Does Tom Martin actually use his "ideal" shape on his basses?

I don't think you can put the wood "aside". If you made a perfectly rigid bridge with no flex in it whatsoever, then it probably wouldn't matter what shape it was. You could make one shaped like Homer Simpson. The transmission effect would be the same (unless you changed the shape of the feet where they touch the top, perhaps).

And ... one final question (cos i don't really have any answers): Is maximising the power of the bass actually the main game???

[Ken McKay]

Bass bridges effect the input admittance of a bass similar to a cello but differently than a violin by quite a bit since the violin bridge is much higher in vibrating frequency relative to the cello and bass bridges with high legs.

The input admittance effects how the bass sounds but is hard to measure yet easy to perceive and hear.

There are three important ways a bridge vibrates. The north-south movement of the bridge at the heart is the lowest in frequency and effects the resonance of the bass body around 400 Hz and is the major contributing movement that effects sound. The second is normally around 1200 and is visualized by imagining the bridge was your body, bow, lean back. And the third is side to side again visualizing a person bending at the hips.

The most important influence on the darkness and fullness of the bass sound is from a light, thin but stiff top plate yet the back has to allow the top to be able to flex because it is connected by the soundpost. This is below 100 Hz

Smooth tone and high quality is highly influenced by equal resonances both loudness and frequency in the 150 to 400 Hz range, which appears the hardest thing to achieve and probably equates to greatness as a maker. This appears the hardest thing to learn, teach, explain, understand. And is in my opinion related to being able to hold the plates and tune the individual resonances heard when tapping. I am not talking the main plate modes or tap tones, but the higher ones.

Above 400 Hz the smoothness needs to continue but starts to be filtered by the bridge.

Of course the bridge feet need to fit well but generally, the effect of tuning the bridge will be above 400 Hz.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

There are three important ways a bridge vibrates. The north-south movement of the bridge at the heart is the lowest in frequency and effects the resonance of the bass body around 400 Hz and is the major contributing movement that effects sound. The second is normally around 1200 and is visualized by imagining the bridge was your body, bow, lean back. And the third is side to side again visualizing a person bending at the hips.

Those describe the internal flexing of a wooden bridge. There's also the "piston" movement of the bass foot on the top, hinged around the treble foot. That's bridge movement, and I think in the end the most significant in driving the plate for sound, but not a flex per se. So what you're describing is how the internal flexing of a bridge absorbs vibration, robbing the top movement perhaps, perhaps, but colouring the sound in the higher frequencies.

[David Potts]

Not to diminish Harry's standing one little bit as a luthier and he is one of the most
intelligent men I know, but he does operate on a very instinctive level. He also supplied and fitted the bridge I have at present which appeared to be the only type of that size available.

I guess we are all trying to get that extra bit of magic, that fine tuning by the "right" strings, bridge, sound post adjustment, etc, that we feel must be there in the bass. We have a sound and response that we think is still possible if we just do a bit more. Maybe it is possible. Then along comes someone else who plays on your bass for a while and hands it back sounding and feeling different under your ears and.hands.

I'm sure there is a sickness called "soundpostitis" or "stringstress" or "bridgetosis."
How much can the bridge affect the tone and response of a bass or this just "fiddling around the edges" and the most important 98% is the body of the bass.

Keep it up, guys. You ARE educating me.

DP

[Ken McKay]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Those describe the internal flexing of a wooden bridge. There's also the "piston" movement of the bass foot on the top, hinged around the treble foot. That's bridge movement, and I think in the end the most significant in driving the plate for sound, but not a flex per se. So what you're describing is how the internal flexing of a bridge absorbs vibration, robbing the top movement perhaps, perhaps, but colouring the sound in the higher frequencies.

Yes, good point Matthew. I was actually thinking about that while driving tonight.

I am not too sure how much effect the shape or material play in that movement, but suspect it could be significant if the bridge is heavy. Similar to sticking a glob of lead on the bass back at the soundpost.

[Ken McKay]

Originally Posted by David Potts

Not to diminish Harry's standing one little bit as a luthier and he is one of the most
intelligent men I know, but he does operate on a very instinctive level. He also supplied and fitted the bridge I have at present which appeared to be the only type of that size available.

I guess we are all trying to get that extra bit of magic, that fine tuning by the "right" strings, bridge, sound post adjustment, etc, that we feel must be there in the bass. We have a sound and response that we think is still possible if we just do a bit more. Maybe it is possible. Then along comes someone else who plays on your bass for a while and hands it back sounding and feeling different under your ears and.hands.

I'm sure there is a sickness called "soundpostitis" or "stringstress" or "bridgetosis."
How much can the bridge affect the tone and response of a bass or this just "fiddling around the edges" and the most important 98% is the body of the bass.

Keep it up, guys. You ARE educating me.

DP

David, you certainly DON"T need to to be an acoustician or physicist to set up a bass. The important things were learned over time and passed down by tradition.

As the player gets better and expects more, then little things can make a big difference. And thats when you need a good luthier.

[Matthew Tucker]

Well one thing about Harry is he almost certainly doesn't spend hours on the internet. So he's not going to have easy access to any of the wide range of bridges that you or other luthiers might know about. He probably uses Paytons (local music wholesaler) and that's it. But there again, knowing Harry and reading between his laconic lines ... maybe he doesn't feel that the potential gains of fiddling with different bass bridges are significant enough to worry about?

You can get just about any shaped bridge in just about any size. I reckon Harry would say "yeah ... that'd work ..." and that's all you'd get. Maybe all you need to.

I'm sure at The Bass Shop they have their favourites too, and so does Neville (who probably makes his own ...)

What would I choose? I'd choose a fairly hard bridge that's nice to carve and that is pleasing to the eye. And not too dear. And will you have adjusters with that, Sir?

[David Potts]

Ken, it's not that I'm trying to buck tradition but to understand some of the reasoning behind it so that I can "read" my next choice of bridge a little more clearly. There are different shaped bridges. Why? What does one have to offer over another? TB members might have more experience than me and save me some time and un-necessary expense.

Very few luthiers here have much experience with setting up basses well. Most of them can cut a reasonable bridge then might move the sound post a little then ask you what you think. This is very tedious and time consuming. I am not a mug and can cut a bridge and set up a bass as well as many of them (and probably will do so again this time).

There are just as many questions to ask about sound posts, but I'll make sure I trawl through previous threads before I put them to you as a new thread.

Thanks for your advice, Matthew. You and I know Harry well!! Not sure yet about risers though.
I hope you and I meet one day soon.

DP

[Matthew Tucker]

I don't know Harry all that well. I have met him maybe three times, and each time I was looking for advice and inspiration. He was very friendly, but wasn't giving too much away. I didn't get what I was looking for until many months later. Only then did I realise that I wasn't going to get a straight answer, from anybody, because there are none. So I thought about what he HAD told me, and i now think I can get a whole lot more from reading between his lines than trying to answer my questions. For example, he went on and on about weighing his violin plates and only using that to help his graduations. I didn't understand why at the time, but now I do, and so does Ken McKay! And that's all I'll say about it ....

[arnoldschnitzer]

The general thinking about bridges is that those with a high arch and small upper part (Belgian-style) create more of a solo-istic tone, and that those with a less-tall arch (French-style) are better for orchestral tone. I think there might be some merit to this, though I am certain the width if the bridge is much more important. To me the Despiau #12 cut bass bridge is just about perfect for any use.

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

The general thinking about bridges is that those with a high arch and small upper part (Belgian-style) create more of a solo-istic tone, and that those with a less-tall arch (French-style) are better for orchestral tone. I think there might be some merit to this, though I am certain the width if the bridge is much more important. To me the Despiau #12 cut bass bridge is just about perfect for any use.

I tried to Google Despiau #12 but to no avail. Where can one find these?

[ctregan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I don't know Harry all that well. I have met him maybe three times, and each time I was looking for advice and inspiration. He was very friendly, but wasn't giving too much away. I didn't get what I was looking for until many months later. Only then did I realise that I wasn't going to get a straight answer, from anybody, because there are none. So I thought about what he HAD told me, and i now think I can get a whole lot more from reading between his lines than trying to answer my questions. For example, he went on and on about weighing his violin plates and only using that to help his graduations. I didn't understand why at the time, but now I do, and so does Ken McKay! And that's all I'll say about it ....

Have you ever had contact with Neville Whitehead?

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

I tried to Google Despiau #12 but to no avail. Where can one find these?

There are CT12 model bridges here.