broken peghead

[1n3]

Two days ago, a german-made 1/2 size Knilling bass came up locally for $200. I had been keeping my eye out for one for quite a while, so I jumped on it. When I arrived, I was disappointed to find neck damage. There were repairs at the heel, peghead, and fingerboard. I asked about the age and stability of the repairs, and was told they were old and stable. It sounded OK, so I took it.

Of course, when I got it home, I opened the bag to find that the peghead repair had failed. Photo:



Two dowels were used in the repair (green circles), with what appears to be PVA or aliphatic resin glue.

Now, I'm wondering what to do. I called a local guy who mostly does guitar work. Without seeing the instrument, he thought he would re-glue, then rout and splice, using aliphatic resin glue. Cost would be well over $100 (no surprise there).

I don't want to put more in this than it's worth, and have no idea of it's value... have found very little info in that regard. Also would hate to spend more money only to have it fail again. Neck replacement seems like a more sure-fire approach, but much more expensive, I assume. I'd be tempted to try the repair myself, but I'm not sure I have the time and skills.

Coincidentally, I have an old King bass with a very similar break, but that's another story. Thought this purchase would give me something immediately usable (and more portable). Didn't work out that way.

Advice is solicited.

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Toss it. Sorry about your $200.

[eh_train]

Originally Posted by 1n3

I asked about the age and stability of the repairs, and was told they were old and stable.... when I got it home, I opened the bag to find that the peghead repair had failed.

Well, if you're soliciting advice, how about going back to the seller and asking for your $200 back? I think the repairs probably weren't old, and they definitely weren't stable.

It might be worth a try....

Cheers,

Paul

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Easy fix for someone who actually knows what they're doing.

AND most importantly doesn't treat all DB's as something sacred or something, so regular fixing methods can't be used.

The dowels and PVA glue are the first signs of a hack-job.


Great price if the rest of the bass is in any kind of shape, and even if it isn't, I'd imagine You can re-coup your investment if you decide it's not worth to you to fix it/get it fixed.

Regards
Sam

[eh_train]

Originally Posted by T-Bird

Hi.

Easy fix for someone who actually knows what they're doing.

I don't see this as an easy fix, at all.

It's the thinnest, weakest part of the neck. It has broken in a few directions. It has been very badly repaired, and the hack drilling for dowels removed more wood material. Then the wrong kind of glue was poured all over the uneven surfaces.

Just undoing the crap repair would be major work. And the whole time you'd be grumbling "who does this to a musical instrument!?!"

Then what? I think you would need to start a neck graft on an really inexpensive, half-sized bass. It wouldn't make sense to do this on such a modest bass. Otherwise, you are putting in tons of work to make your $200 bass worth $400.

Not sure why the OP doesn't complain that he was sold junk. It sounds like it fell apart on the way home.

[1n3]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Originally Posted by eh_train

I don't see this as an easy fix, at all.

It's the thinnest, weakest part of the neck. It has broken in a few directions. It has been very badly repaired, and the hack drilling for dowels removed more wood material. Then the wrong kind of glue was poured all over the uneven surfaces.

Just undoing the crap repair would be major work. And the whole time you'd be grumbling "who does this to a musical instrument!?!"

Then what? I think you would need to start a neck graft on an really inexpensive, half-sized bass. It wouldn't make sense to do this on such a modest bass. Otherwise, you are putting in tons of work to make your $200 bass worth $400.

Not sure why the OP doesn't complain that he was sold junk. It sounds like it fell apart on the way home.

I think your characterization of the damage is fairly accurate. There is probably agreement that a proper repair will involve some glue removal, and some new wood. Beyond that, opinions diverge, I think.

As to why I don't go back to the seller... First, he is not likely to take it back, due to his circumstances. Second, I'm not sure I want to take it back. I've been looking for a 1/2 size bass for about three years. By "looking", I don't mean going to a string shop in a large city, where I could find one easily if price was no object. I mean watching local listings and shops in a sparsely populated area. Before this bass appeared, I had seen a total of one; an Engelhardt in a pawn shop that sounded like crap, needed a neck reset, and was ~$500 IIRC. Come to think of it, that was a 1/4 size.

Naturally, I'm unhappy that the bass did, as you say, fall apart on the way home. But before I decide what to do about it, I need more information; that's the purpose of my post. I have almost no idea of it's value in repaired condition, and a very rough idea of repair options and cost. The body appears to be in good condition, aside from some slight damage to the top around the neck tenon.

[fdeck]

I wonder if it is worthwhile to fit a factory-made 1/2 size bass neck to this bass, using the existing fingerboard and hardware. My rationale is that a neck reset has to occur in either case, and so it's a question of paying for the labor to repair the existing problems, or pay for the materials to just make those problems go away. It would also go from being a wreck waiting to happen again, to a reliable instrument that you could probably re-sell to a student.

[JoeyNaeger]

+1, a new, precarved neck is really the only reasonable solution.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by fdeck

I wonder if it is worthwhile to fit a factory-made 1/2 size bass neck to this bass, using the existing fingerboard and hardware. My rationale is that a neck reset has to occur in either case, and so it's a question of paying for the labor to repair the existing problems, or pay for the materials to just make those problems go away. It would also go from being a wreck waiting to happen again, to a reliable instrument that you could probably re-sell to a student.

Yeah, neck replacement has advantages, as you point out. I'd consider it, depending on the cost, and if there was a compensating enhancement to the value. Resale value is a consideration, but not the first, because I might keep it a while. A repair that is cheap & ugly but stable would also be appealing.

Anyone got a good source for a pre-carved neck? I used to do business with International Luthiers Supply in Tulsa, but they're long gone.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by eh_train

I don't see this as an easy fix, at all.

I do not doubt that, and I do respect Your POV.
I don't even doubt that most will view it as an unfeasible repair to a BSO in the first place -regardless of the value of the said instrument- but I've done a few peg box repairs like that to instruments (both in the violin family, CCB's, a lot more on solid bodies) and IME it's rather easy.

Originally Posted by eh_train

It's the thinnest, weakest part of the neck. It has broken in a few directions. It has been very badly repaired, and the hack drilling for dowels removed more wood material. Then the wrong kind of glue was poured all over the uneven surfaces.

Yes, and that makes things a lot easier (IME again) since the only way to repair something like that is to put more wood in there.

Originally Posted by eh_train

Just undoing the crap repair would be major work.

I totally disagree there. Depending on the definition of "major" of course .

All the crappy repairs will have to be removed with a saw. Or by replacing the whole neck since there's questionable repairs in the heel section as well. A few pics of the heel area would shed some light on the bigger picture the OP is facing here.


Carving a 1/2 neck and using the salvaged FB and tuners from the old neck shouldn't be all that hard. If a pre-made neck in a specific price point is impossible to find.


But, breathing new life onto a neglected acoustic instrument is a reward by itself. To me anyway.

Originally Posted by eh_train

Then what? I think you would need to start a neck graft on an really inexpensive, half-sized bass. It wouldn't make sense to do this on such a modest bass. Otherwise, you are putting in tons of work to make your $200 bass worth $400.

More like making a $200 bass worth $200 but playable in most cases if You ask me, but the monetary or resale value is only one side of the whole equation.

In this case though, if the bass really is an European -better yet western European- in origin, its value could be rather high.
IMLE the supply of smaller than 3/4 DB's is very limited, even with CCB's.

Regards
Sam

[arnoldschnitzer]

You could do a cheap and ugly repair and end up with a playable instrument. Glue the mess back together with strong, thick epoxy. Remove the finish from the outside of the broken area, and inside the pegbox. Wrap the outside and the interior of the pegbox in fiberglass cloth saturated with epoxy (wear gloves). When cured, paint it brown. The materials will cost you about $20 and you will have an ugly, playable bass. The neck is toast anyway, so it's not like you would be destroying something valuable. Good luck!

[RCWilliams]

I once repaired a neck that was trashed ( el cheapo) by glueing it back together and after it was set, with the finger board off, i hollowed out the neck in the aflicted area and secveral inches beyond and filled with fiber glass clothe and resin, then I leveled it up and put the finger board back on. very strong , had visible wood on the outside but fiberglass on the inside. becaus of the location of this break, it would be good to lay up the glass into the walls of the peg box. might work, but if I were you, I'd use Arnold's suggestion, its easier.

[JoeyNaeger]

Man I've done some ghetto repairs, but that has to take the cake...Sounds fun.

[mark koschik]

Tryn` to put a pic in here.... Wondering if this kind of repair would work, and possible to do fast enough (the pink chalk is new wood). more at busted bass neck - Photobucket Groups

[robobass]

The sad thing is that that repair might have held had hide glue or epoxy been used.

[1n3]

A couple of you have wondered about the heel repair. It looks like it might hold, but I'm not experienced enough to be a good judge of that. Here are some pics:


Yes, there is a screw under that hole plug.




Aside from the areas I've shown, the rest of the body is in good condition.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

You could do a cheap and ugly repair and end up with a playable instrument. Glue the mess back together with strong, thick epoxy. Remove the finish from the outside of the broken area, and inside the pegbox. Wrap the outside and the interior of the pegbox in fiberglass cloth saturated with epoxy (wear gloves). When cured, paint it brown. The materials will cost you about $20 and you will have an ugly, playable bass. The neck is toast anyway, so it's not like you would be destroying something valuable. Good luck!

Thanks, Arnold; pleased to have you here. I did say cheap & ugly had some appeal, but that would be uglier than I had imagined. Still, it sounds like a workable approach that wouldn't require a lot of skill.

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

I once repaired a neck that was trashed ( el cheapo) by glueing it back together and after it was set, with the finger board off, i hollowed out the neck in the aflicted area and secveral inches beyond and filled with fiber glass clothe and resin, then I leveled it up and put the finger board back on. very strong , had visible wood on the outside but fiberglass on the inside. becaus of the location of this break, it would be good to lay up the glass into the walls of the peg box. might work, but if I were you, I'd use Arnold's suggestion, its easier.

This is similar to Arnold's method; more skill required, but a better-looking result. Also similar to what the local repair guy proposed, but with epoxy/glass, the carving doesn't need to be as precise, and you don't need to fit splices. Definitely worth consideration.

Originally Posted by robobass

The sad thing is that that repair might have held had hide glue or epoxy been used.

Interesting... As I mentioned previously, I also have a 3/4 King with a broken peghead that has not been repaired. I planned to glue it, but in my internet research, had found conflicting information regarding the best glue to use. But I had narrowed it down to hide and epoxy. Later on, I may come back to this thread with that problem.

[RCWilliams]

After seeing more pics of the bass, I suggest you use Arnold's method with one variation, paint it orange when you're done.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

After seeing more pics of the bass, I suggest you use Arnold's method with one variation, paint it orange when you're done.

And some Bondo for that top chip in the last pic!