Can Someone Explain Flame / Tiger Stripe Finish?

[MT Spaces]

No .... I don't mean a Billy Rocker flame kind of deal . I have a '40 Kay O-1 with "tiger" back and sides ... seems like Kay only did this between about '38 to about '42 on mostly "Orchestra" models. (EDIT: Roger Stowers from the Kay Bass website told me some early S models also have the flaming.) I personally haven't seen this too often on basses. But I live in the "sticks" and I could be totally wrong. OK ... Please don't "flame" me ... I know most orchestra players aren't playing plywood Kays !

What I want to know is .... how is this effect created? No matter how cheeezzy it may be ... sorry .... but I like it and I have gotten a number of positive comments about my bass. Are any current bass makers / finishers doing this kind of thing? Or is it just too passe and tacky ? I assume it is created by a spray (or brush?) pattern sometime during the finishing process. Then I saw this ad today in the classifieds for a 1959 Roth bass (NICE HYBRID with a fat neck, wish I lived closer to that sale) that has a tiger back and the seller said something about "factory etched."

1959 Roth Bass - $4000

Here's the back of that Roth for sale: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attach...2&d=1200703641

What gives? If any luthiers / finishers have any info about this, I would appreciate your comments. If any of you other TB'ers have flamey / tiger type of finishes, I would love it if you would post any photos you might have. I'm certain that the Kay folks didn't invent this finishing technique. Where and when did this technique originate? What's the history? Are there any examples of some old classical basses? ... Paging Ken Smith . Thanks!

P.S. This is sure some nice work by Norton back-in-the-good-ole-days: http://www.nortoncustoms.com/mini_ga...s/J_FLAMMY.htm . I do realize that this flameyness is the result of the select wood grain itself and not an air-brush effect .... nevertheless .... Woof ... Gorgeous! BTW, Is anyone on the planet making ply or real wood basses with "book-end matched" symmetrical backs and/or fronts (like other acoustic instruments ... guitars and mandolins) so that the air brush / special finishing techniques are not required?

Here's my back and one side (the non-belly rubbed side):

[dennis duvall]

Bob, I have some pictures posted in this forum under "string question dennis duvall" of my bass build, and I searched to find the right maple with good figure in it. If you blow up that sideways rib picture you can see the figure. When I was curator at the Davis gun museum in Oklahoma, the black powder guys were always on a quest to get good figured wood for gun stocks. Any old flintlocks will almost always have figure in them. At the museum there were examples of old guns that old timers used to wrap the stocks with string soaked in acid to burn in a striped pattern. As far as I know this pattern occurs randomly in wood and there is no way to tell until you cut the tree. I don't know if this is any help, But I will always buy figured wood when I come across it. Dennis

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by dennis duvall

Bob, I have some pictures posted in this forum under "string question dennis duvall" of my bass build ...

Thanks Dennis ... I will check it out first thing in the morning! Plus .... one of the employees at our place of biz is a black powder rifle shooter and he knows a lot of rendezvous-ers (if that is a word) so maybe I can get some info from them about "etching." Not that I can necessarily apply that knowledge to a double bass finish ..... but you never know .

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Well, if you are talking about the natural flamed figure in wood then it is not made or done by a Luthier. It comes from mother nature. It's just how that tree grew. The Luther only puts the finish over it and hopefully lets the Flames show as best as possible.

Heres are some Basses that have some very visible natural flamed figure. The first one is my Gilkes shown both in the raw (after 193 years) during its restoration as well as under its beautiful 'English Gold' Varnish.


Here is a Bass by his pupil John Hart with inside raw wood view as well as its Varnished look 'London Red/Gold'.


And finally here are 2 other Bass Backs. One looks to be New England Sugar Maple probably imported into Italy in the 18th century and the other a modern Bass made from Wester Big Leaf Maple.

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Well, if you are talking about the natural flamed figure in wood then it is not made or done by a Luthier. It comes from mother nature ....

Wow ... Thanks Ken ... now I have to go to the kitchen and get a dish towel to sop up the drool !

[envika]

ken smith is the man

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by envika

ken smith is the man

+++1 on that deal ! I know it is "passe" ... but I, for one, am so happy he is again solidly with us TB DB'ers ! Let's just hope he doesn't buy some early Italian and English P-Basses and scoot over to the "Other Side" !

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Well, if you are talking about the natural flamed figure in wood then it is not made or done by a Luthier. It comes from mother nature. It's just how that tree grew. The Luther only puts the finish over it and hopefully lets the Flames show as best as possible.

That's not 100% true. I once refinished a presumed German roundback that appeared to be highly flamed. As I removed the original varnish, I discovered that the "flame" came off with the varnish. My late mentor told me that this was very common on 1900-1920 era lower priced violins and cellos. Apparently it was done with an air brush. I've seen a few other basses with air brushed "flame" over the years. Usually the varnish is pretty dark.


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[1st Bass]

I have run into air-brushed flame on three occasions, but in every case, it was possible to tell that it was fake, by rocking the wood under the light, perpendicular to the direction of the flame-- the real stuff seems to shimmer and move under the surface-- it is called "chatoyance"-- having the character of a cat-eye. The fake stuff does not move at all. Some of the real flame that is heavily dyed does not seem to move as much, but it still moves.

[Steve Killingsworth]

You might find this of interest. It is a little wordy but pretty informative.

[bassist14]

great link,
esp. this:
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/aaes/commun...gureinwood.pdf
thank you

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

That's not 100% true. I once refinished a presumed German roundback that appeared to be highly flamed. As I removed the original varnish, I discovered that the "flame" came off with the varnish. My late mentor told me that this was very common on 1900-1920 era lower priced violins and cellos. Apparently it was done with an air brush. I've seen a few other basses with air brushed "flame" over the years. Usually the varnish is pretty dark.


Sent with my iPod Touch

Well Bob, I am aware of those faked Flame instruments but I was asked to show some vintage stuff with the real thing so I did.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Just so you are clear on my intentions, here are some more pics of Vintage Flame..

Olde English in restoration;


Attrib, Storioni, pre-restoration (actually, I'm playing it tonight in a Symphony concert);


The Gilkes exposed;

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Some Flamed Necks and stuff.. (no names, you figure it out..lol);

[dennis duvall]

That last picture of the neck on Ken Smith's bass (although original) shows that a faker would wrap the neck (or gunstock) with yarn or some other irregular absorbant material then "wet" that material (where he wanted the figure) with an acid such as sulphuric for black, or aqua fortis for brown,or a combination of both for a really authentic natural look. Let the acid burn, then remove and lightly refinish wood. Dennis

[dennis duvall]

actually i'm refinishing a romanian right now and will "figure" the neck with that process and can post some pics if you like.Dennis

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by bassist14

great link, esp. this:
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/aaes/commun...gureinwood.pdf

Thanks Bassist .... I will check it out. By the way, I see you sold a '39 Kay M-1 recently. Did it by any chance have the tiger back? It would have been made in the right time-frame for that kind of finish.

[ctregan]

Ken,
Thanks for sharing close up pictures of the beautiful basses. Its a great learning tool!

One suggestion.... seeing the luan plywood door in the same frame as your beautiful basses somehow doesn't look right to me. Do you have a different backdrop?

Thanks for the Photos, I can live with the background if it means looking at great basses.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by dennis duvall

That last picture of the neck on Ken Smith's bass (although original) shows that a faker would wrap the neck (or gunstock) with yarn or some other irregular absorbant material then "wet" that material (where he wanted the figure) with an acid such as sulphuric for black, or aqua fortis for brown,or a combination of both for a really authentic natural look. Let the acid burn, then remove and lightly refinish wood. Dennis

Which Neck are you talking about. None of them are faked flame. They are all real natural flamed Maple. Post the Pic here for discussion ans we can straighten it out. I posted 2 different Basses in that Neck wood post, not one.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Well Bob, I am aware of those faked Flame instruments but I was asked to show some vintage stuff with the real thing so I did.

I guess I read it as he was asking if there were examples of fake flame in classical period instruments. Regardless, it's always fun to look at your photos.


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