Carbon Fiber Endpins

CBFinet · #1 03-13-2005, 09:54 AM

I've been looking into carbon fiber endpins lately and I'm wondering what's out there. My teacher just got one on his orchestra bass and it made a noticeable difference in volume and clarity. He got his from Robertsons in Albequerque who gets them from a guys who makes them locally (not sure of his name). It's quite a bit larger in diameter than the standard Goetz pins like I have now, and it feels really stable... So, aside form this one from Robertsons, the 8mm replacement pin from Upton bass, and the one made by the company that's making arco and pizz pens (sorry, wasn't sure of the name) Does anybody know of any other carbon fiber endpins?

Bob Gollihur · #2 03-13-2005, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBFinet

I've been looking into carbon fiber endpins lately and I'm wondering what's out there. My teacher just got one on his orchestra bass and it made a noticeable difference in volume and clarity. He got his from Robertsons in Albequerque who gets them from a guys who makes them locally (not sure of his name). It's quite a bit larger in diameter than the standard Goetz pins like I have now, and it feels really stable... So, aside form this one from Robertsons, the 8mm replacement pin from Upton bass, and the one made by the company that's making arco and pizz pens (sorry, wasn't sure of the name) Does anybody know of any other carbon fiber endpins?

My supplier has 10mm and 8mm carbon fiber endpins, I've gotten a couple 10mm, one for tall (6'6"!) NJ bassist who bought a Bulgarian from me and needed the extra length of the 20" carbon fiber pin. There is another supplier I've spoken with but haven't tried any of his yet.

flatback · #3 03-14-2005, 12:14 AM

Check out Camelopard endpins if you want the absolute finest in endpins...The carbon fiber model is the cheap model (and sounds comparitively weaker) His Pizz and arco endpins are titanium filled with some secret stuff.
The sockets are hand made and gold plated with a beautiful and elegant lock.
Camelopard gave me their full line, when they were first coming out, and the pin had a profoundly pleasing effect on my sound. Other then using them on my bass I have no affiliation with them.
If you are in the Bay Area I'd be glad to let you check the various pins out. I have the pizz arco carbon fiber and a hollow titanium (as a control)

godoze · #4 03-14-2005, 06:51 AM

Are these solid or hollow ? I am interested in trying one myself.

godoze · #5 03-14-2005, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatback

Check out Camelopard endpins if you want the absolute finest in endpins...The carbon fiber model is the cheap model (and sounds comparitively weaker) His Pizz and arco endpins are titanium filled with some secret stuff.
The sockets are hand made and gold plated with a beautiful and elegant lock.
Camelopard gave me their full line, when they were first coming out, and the pin had a profoundly pleasing effect on my sound. Other then using them on my bass I have no affiliation with them.
If you are in the Bay Area I'd be glad to let you check the various pins out. I have the pizz arco carbon fiber and a hollow titanium (as a control)

Am i reading you right that they have an endpin for the pizz player and one for the arco player ?

Eric Rene Roy · #6 03-14-2005, 07:47 AM

http://www.magpiedesign.com/camelopard/

Here you go DZ, they really are quite nice!

flatback · #7 03-14-2005, 09:17 AM

DZ,
yea there is one for arco and one for pizz. I have both but only really use the pizz. (Iuse it for arco too) If I did a lot of arco I would use it I guess. These pins are really lovely. I've had them for about 5 years and the socket and lock still works beautifully. The cat who makes them is a cellist and did a bunch of research on the resonant aspect of endpins (cellists deal with very long pins where it makes more of a difference)
When I put it on my bass I noticed a big difference right away. But just as a high end upgrade I think it rocks...the lock and socket are worth it even if you think the science is funny...I would love to hear what some luthiers think about the resonant thing....

CBFinet · #8 03-15-2005, 02:12 AM

So from what i've gathered, the titanium endpins make even more of a difference than carbon fiber... I'm interested in the Camelopard endpins, but I don't have/ can't justify spending that amount of money right now. I really like my teacher's new carbon fiber endpin because of its large diameter. The whole assembly is nice, but the larger diameter makes it feel even more secure than the Goetz enpin that he had on before and the same that I have on my bass now. My bass is great, but I'm almost certain that although i plan on keeping it, it won't be my "career" bass. Maybe when that comes along, I can check out the Camelopard system, but fo right now I'm really just interested in the carbon fiber endpins.
Bob, do the endpins that you carry fit into existing sockets, or are they a complete unit? Does anyone know of any larger diameter carbon fiber systems or anything we haven't heard about here?
Thanks again

Eric Rene Roy · #9 03-15-2005, 05:30 AM

When I was at JR Music (Eurosonic bass strings, Calin Wultur basses) I was developing a carbon fiber endpin for cello & bass that did not have a thumb screw. The cello turned out real nice, but the bass was still being refined when I left them, so I don't know how it is now.

The rod on the bass was almost 16mm thick! ( http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/access.html ). The unit was sold together, so you can not buy the pin separately (although I don't know of a collar out there that could take a 16mm rod without major mods).

Originally, I just wanted carbon fiber replacement rods to sell to my dealers...but after talking to a number of carbon fiber dealers, and my dealers, it came to my attention that the thumb screw on a traditional endpin puts a side load on the carbon fiber that will cause the carbon fiber to crack over time. Carbon fiber is very strong, but cannot take direct side load pressure for very long. A solid rod will help with the cracking, but it will still shear the fibers over time.

Do a search for carbon fiber rods available to kite hobbyists, you will find a ton of diameters available (mostly hollow core) and in a variety of lengths. They are cheap enough that you could fill one with epoxy to make it solid and also have a hollow one...play with the tone a bit! If you get creative...you can come up with your own tip. I'd love to see a thread here on TBDB with pictures of home made CF pins!

Chasarms · #10 03-15-2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatback

...the lock and socket are worth it even if you think the science is funny...

I certainly agree that a very high quality lock and socket system on your endpin is worth it. I have had the KC Strings shop endpin installed on both of my basses. They are an excellent pin. My teacher has them on both his symphony bass and teaching bass.

The are extremely easy to use with positive stops, very solid, offer the best rubber foot that I have ever seen and go from easily loose and collapsible to absolutely secure and immovable with about a half turn of the set screw.

Alexi David · #11 03-15-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatback

DZ,
yea there is one for arco and one for pizz. I have both but only really use the pizz. (Iuse it for arco too) If I did a lot of arco I would use it I guess. These pins are really lovely. I've had them for about 5 years and the socket and lock still works beautifully. The cat who makes them is a cellist and did a bunch of research on the resonant aspect of endpins (cellists deal with very long pins where it makes more of a difference)
When I put it on my bass I noticed a big difference right away. But just as a high end upgrade I think it rocks...the lock and socket are worth it even if you think the science is funny...I would love to hear what some luthiers think about the resonant thing....

Well, I'm almost "sold" on the idea! But I have two questions - 1. Would the rubber tip be good to replace my wolf super endpin stop? I love the wolf, the bass doesn't slip an inch... and 2. What IS the difference tonally between the arco and the pizz endpins?

flatback · #12 03-15-2005, 11:56 AM

The diff between the two is like the difference between tylanol and advil. They both work equally well but some people prefer one or the other for fuzzy reasons. What I "hear" as the difference is a quicker response in the pizz. a little more open attack. But if I only had one or the other I'd use it just the same. The biggest sonic difference comes when you put the CF pin or hollow titanium in. THen you can hear marked change in resonance (the hollow ti is boomy and ringy and the cf is a bit muted) I went thru a whole curve of trying them in succession to see if I was under th placebo spell that sometimes effects me, but then I settled on the pizz. and stopped thinking about it.
The stoppers have both a carbide tip and rubber stopper built into the same end. With the tip into the floor the effects are that much more amplified.
The crutch stopper that comes with it is OK if you hold your bass upright (I do) but on a stool it slides a bit. I would change over to those big monster (KC) stoppers if they fit....(I just haven't got around to buying one to test.)

Julie · #13 03-15-2005, 01:17 PM

I too have a cameleopard titanium endpin. Made a difference on my bass also. A friend of mine that has an Italian bass uses the pizz. endpin, so I think it depends on the sound you'r e looking for. As stated the workmanship is first rate.
Julie

godoze · #14 03-15-2005, 01:36 PM

my interest is officially piqued!

godoze · #15 03-15-2005, 01:37 PM

Chas, how would you compare the fittings to the Shen endpin ?

Chasarms · #16 03-15-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DZ

Chas, how would you compare the fittings to the Shen endpin ?

When I removed the factory pin from the Shen, I thought it somehow inappropriate to have both it and the KC Strings pin in the room at the same time, so I removed the old pin and carried out to the shop behind my garage before I was willing to present the KC pin to the bass.

It really is night and day. I don't know about your bass, but the pin in my 180 would have to be one of the lowlites of an otherwise absolutely fabulous relationship. It was a decent plug, but the collar was a cheaply played metal of some form that was simply glued over the plug and threaded to accommodate a set screw. No bushings or anything to create a good positive stop at the notches.

The KC pin is wonderfully engineered and made so that it will positive stop at every notch and a half turn with snug it so nothing can move it. If you release a half turn and push in the thumb piece, the pin can be instantly collapsed. I don't know what the shaft itself is made from, but it is beastly. It is common 10mm, so you could do a carbin pin or use your wheel with that plug and collar.

It isn't wonderfully done as far as aesthetics are concerned, but from a functionality standpoint, it is the best I have seen. The rubber foot is the most industrial looking thing in the world, but it will probably be the only one you'll ever need.

godoze · #17 03-15-2005, 03:48 PM

wow. the pin in my shen willow is very well made.

basswraith · #18 03-16-2005, 01:25 PM

Go to this website:
http://cstsales.com/

you can pretty much purchase carbon fiber rods in any length or diameter the cheapest I have seen.

I bought a 1/2"x 2 feet long for $28.00. This is substantially cheaper than you can buy a carbon fiber endpin for.

If you buy an 8 mm or 10 mm, whatever you need, then you can cut it to length, put a small rubber crutch tip from Home Depot on the end, and voila, you have a carbon fiber endpin that you can experiment with. If you hate it, you can at least keep it as a backup.

godoze · #19 03-16-2005, 03:51 PM

Chas, did you have to reshape the plug to fit the shen or did it slide right in ?

Chasarms · #20 03-16-2005, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DZ

Chas, did you have to reshape the plug to fit the shen or did it slide right in ?

Ah, an opportunity to boast of one of my finer luthier-like moments

:

I remove the old pin and plug, stick the plug in my coat pocket and am off to visit my wonderful friends at St. Louis Strings, a long-distance off-shoot of KC. They typically have a decent stock of those pins.

So, the young lad at the shop (Michael, the proprietor, is not in) seems to understand my request. I produce the plug and he goes about measuring the taper (it's correct) and the diameter with his fancy engineer doohickey. Young lad then rummages through the box of plugs and selects one that he deems to be of the same variety. I select a pin length, he slaps on the rubber megafoot and off I go.

Get home, and there she is -the Mistress on the bed - stripped down and ready for me to insert my . . .uhh? . . . oh! . . . endpin plug.

It no go!!! It's too fat. It's probably 3/8" or so from seating. So, following a brief cursing episode, I begin to wonder how I am going to remedy this, as I have no endpin plug hole cutter, nor do I wish to lug the Mistress back down to the shop in her semi-naked state. Then it hits me. An idea!!!!

I head out to my back shop, slip the pin in the plug, snug it down and proceed to insert the pin shaft into the chuck of my drillpress. A few seconds later, I have the plug spinning at a few hundred RPM. A little 100 grit on on a piece of 2x stock and I am able to take enough material off the plug in just a couple of minutes to make it fit snuggly as a buggly.

There was a few stops for trial, but it was easy. I was so proud. My idea actually worked. That's so rare.