Cedar soundposts

james condino · #1 05-17-2009, 01:18 AM

Can anyone comment on their results from using western red cedar (thuja plicata) for soundposts? I've got a lot of well seasoned spruces in my "vault", and some fantastic cedars as well, but I've never tried it for soundposts. I've used it for a variety of tops on smaller instruments, both flat and carved, and I know Matthew and others have had good results using it for bass tops.

j.
www.condino.com

ctregan · #2 05-17-2009, 04:44 AM

I'm using western red cedar for the sound post in a bass I'm building. Its extremely tight grained, and light as a feather.

It works fine, but, since this is the bass's first sound post, I have nothing to compare it to. In the future, I'll make another one out of spruce and do a clinical study.

One concern is strength, cedar is not as strong as spruce and basses have a lot of downward string pressure. Another question is light density vs denser woods for sound posts.

**Matthew Tucker** · #3 05-18-2009, 12:13 AM

I must say, I haven't noticed much of difference between a cedar sound post and a spruce soundpost on the basses I have here. Have used both. And the cedar is plenty strong enough. I've tried plain ol' pine curtain-rod, too. Slightly warmer sound, if anything.

arnoldschnitzer · #4 05-19-2009, 07:15 AM

I agree with Matthew. I used to keep soundposts around that were made of different types of spruce and cedar, of several densities. My thinking was that the more dense the soundpost, the more pronounced the highs would sound. And also the opposite. Then I started to notice that it really didn't make a difference. The things that did make a difference were fit and position. In my current thinking the soundpost is basically just a pivot point which affects the swinging of the bass bar (and also the way the top vibrates). I don't think that its traditionally thought-of function as a "spreader" of the sound is real. What I have learned to play close attention to is the fit of the post with the strings up to tension. This can be considerably different than the fit with the strings down. There is a practitioner in the area charging big bucks to change basses over to a cedar soundpost. Bassists hear a "huge" difference at first, probably because they've been told they will. Then they show up a few weeks later at a different shop because the bass has lost sound, usually as a result of the post fitting poorly.

**Matthew Tucker** · #5 05-19-2009, 08:07 AM

In fact, in an attempt to darken a bass's response - thinking as Arnold did, a stiffer post means more highs, yeah maybe the post is transmitting vibrations to the back, so to cut down high frequencies i need a softer post, etc etc I have tried padding the end of the post with a rubber pad, or cork. It made very little, if any, difference. Maybe a little bit, but nothing dramatic.

james condino · #6 05-19-2009, 12:51 PM

Thanks for the replies. I figured about as much as everyone mentioned; I thought it was worth asking since nothing came up in a search. My general impression has been that the fit and placement make the biggest difference.

I've run into a couple of customers lately who were all worked up about a fellow who makes pretty huge claims about his soundposts that have a large hole drilled through the middle of them. I've been wanting to try a thin walled carbon fiber tube for a while, but from all my work using that on guitars, I'm pretty gunshy. It is pretty difficult to work with, trashes your tools (and lungs) and the splinters are incredibly painful.

I'll drop in a cedar post later this week and give my (if any) personal results. Of all the great things I can say about western red cedar, I'm clear on my favorite use for it- taking a nap under one in a huge grove on a sunny summer day...

j.

Martin Sheridan · #7 05-19-2009, 04:14 PM

I'm pretty much in agreement with Arnold's sound points (sorry if that sounds puney, oh sorry again).

Except possibly: I remember reading where somebody did a high speed motion picture photog that showed the bridge rocks back and forth from side to side which drove the sound post like a piston which in turn pumped air in and out of the instrument.

May be? But, anyhoo there is no substitute to the right fit and position.

I've never used cedar for posts, and don't want to make one anyway. Seems like it wood ( there I go again)split easily.
I'd better take a pill and lie down.

Darren Molnar · #8 05-19-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

Thanks for the replies. I figured about as much as everyone mentioned; I thought it was worth asking since nothing came up in a search. My general impression has been that the fit and placement make the biggest difference.

I've run into a couple of customers lately who were all worked up about a fellow who makes pretty huge claims about his soundposts that have a large hole drilled through the middle of them. I've been wanting to try a thin walled carbon fiber tube for a while, but from all my work using that on guitars, I'm pretty gunshy. It is pretty difficult to work with, trashes your tools (and lungs) and the splinters are incredibly painful.

I'll drop in a cedar post later this week and give my (if any) personal results. Of all the great things I can say about western red cedar, I'm clear on my favorite use for it- taking a nap under one in a huge grove on a sunny summer day...

j.

The thing about posts with holes in the middle is that they are easier to fit for someone who can't fit, and the dig into the wood kinda like a hole saw, again, making a better fit if someone lacked the skill for fitting.

Is this what he's doing, James? Sounds dangerous!

fdeck · #9 05-19-2009, 07:20 PM

If you keep your tux in the case with the bass, the cedar will keep the moths out.

bejoyous · #10 05-19-2009, 07:54 PM

With a cedar soundpost, your bass will smell a lot nicer than spruce!

billybass · #11 05-19-2009, 09:28 PM

Since it is darker in color it must be darker in sound. Just like over varnished old basses.

james condino · #12 05-19-2009, 10:33 PM

Darren,

I haven't seen one of the drilled out soundposts in person; I've got a regular customer who is always preaching snakeoil about them (but he doesn't use one). A holesaw on the top is similar to what I was thinking; pretty fragile too if you load it wrong while moving it around.

j.

forester · #13 05-19-2009, 11:05 PM

+1 fit
+2 tension ... i think cedar would be more likely to get fuzzy( you know what i mean) at the seal, top and bottom, if it takes a lot of moving around..sides will mar easier too.

james condino · #14 05-24-2009, 05:36 PM

Well, I gave it a try this weekend. The surprising thing about the cedar post was that, intuitively, everything seemed to be reversed. The old spruce post was a LOT wider grain and seemed like it would have a lower response compared to the newtight grained cedar one. When I put them both up on my audio test rig (drop them a couple of times on the table of my old Walker Turner bandsaw), the cedar rung a lot lower- a clearly audible tic vs tock sound.

Installed, the results were great, but I'm sure I also put a bit of effort into making it a great fit. You can see the results of the fit over on my new thread, james' bass build (finally posted it!).

The cedar I used was a nice well seasoned, approx 40 years old, piece that came out of my random pile. Tight grained and hand split like a Karate movie. About 20 minutes of peaceful bliss with a handplane and everything was finished....

j.

james condino · #15 05-28-2009, 03:27 AM

After having it in place for the weekend, if anything, I notice the bass is a bit darker and has more sustain and the volume dropped just a bit, but there is more focus. I'll attribute it more to the much better fit than the other post and not the fact that it is cedar. I'm going to move it around a bit and bring the high end back up a little and get things a bit more rowdy sounding. Either way, just by trying out a new post and getting a different sound from the new fit was worth the experiment. 'Love that new trapdoor!!!

j.