Cello neck pulling off the body. help with repair?

[BitterRoot]

Hello LC.
First time poster, but have been fallowing the Custom Fretlees 5 comp. for some time. (hell yea big b and drake!) anywhom, i have a little job that i think the lc can help me with.

I just got a used cello on craigslist for $250.00.
drove 2hrs to pick it up.
thing was allot more beat up then i anticipated, but heck, i just drove 2 hrs through the Adirondacks, guess it wasn't my best move to buy sight-unseen.
its a roth 4/4 and the guy who had it must have left it strung up when he was moving around because the neck has started to pull away at the button. its not to bad but when i got home and was brining it back into tune, it started to creak a little. that small gap got a little bigger.
i de-tuned right away and decided to see what you guys think. heres some pics.

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ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

found this website bass and cello scroll repair

this looks like something i could do. im a machinist by profession,(but not quite a professional,lol) and i could make something up like thins in about 45mins.

would that be enough to set the neck, or do i half to detach the neck, remove the glue, shim and re-laminate?

Im fairly confident in my woodworking skills, as long as i take my time.

oh and on a side note, if i go to a luthier for advice, do i pay him for his time and knowledge, (how much i guess is the real question).

Thanks for reading, please let me know what you think!

[BitterRoot]

oh dang, dose this belong in repair thread?...i guess so. uhh help mods?

[joinercape]

Please don't use screws or other mechanical fastners! Remove the neck, clean up the pocket and neck heel, refit dry, make maple shims to get a tight fit, then glue with hide glue so the next guy can get it apart if required.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Welcome to TalkBass BitterRoot

With a quick Google search, it seems that Roth isn't excactly the cream of the crop instrument. If it's the CCC Roth's that I found that is.

That (usually IME) means that the glues aren't hide, the joints aren't precise, and repairing the instrument "the right" way is either unfeasibly costly or involves experience and skills an average DIYer doesn't posess.

The repair method OP linked is very common, and this has held up a long long time I assume:



Now I didn't do this, and judging by the corrosion, the repair is at least 20 years old, perhaps more.


This is by no means an attempt to discourage OP's idea about repairing the neck joint the right way, but just to show there's an easier, just as good way in this case. IMHO anyway.

Regards
Sam

[draftsmann]

You'd be better off posting the question in the double bass repair/setup forum. The guys there are extremely helpful. They will, I am sure, dissuade you from any kind of plate/screws bodge.

[BitterRoot]

Thanks everyone. I'll move this post as soon as I figure out how... Oh and I'm decently leaning towards the proper repair, for the practice at least. I love working on my instruments, let's me get to know them

[Jake deVilliers]

+1 on what JoinerCape said. Its not that hard to do it the right way and you can actually increase the value instead of diminishing it!

Patiently washing out/loosening the old glue with how water used sparingly will help the neck come all the way off.

After drying for a day, make sure the mortise and tenon fit nice and snugly.

Re-glue with hot hide glue.

Good luck!

[joinercape]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

+1 on what JoinerCape said. Its not that hard to do it the right way and you can actually increase the value instead of diminishing it!

Patiently washing out/loosening the old glue with how water used sparingly will help the neck come all the way off.

After drying for a day, make sure the mortise and tenon fit nice and snugly.

Re-glue with hot hide glue.

Good luck!

All this is right...just because the instrument is inexpensive doesn't mean you should do a botch job on it. If you do it right you may be surprised how good you can make it play.

[eh_train]

Originally Posted by T-Bird

Hi.

Welcome to TalkBass BitterRoot

With a quick Google search, it seems that Roth isn't excactly the cream of the crop instrument. If it's the CCC Roth's that I found that is.

The Roth name has been used for a long time (although they may use the name in China nowadays). Because of the finish on the neck and the fact it has real purfling, I'd guess it is somewhat older and of European origin. The proper repair won't involve any metal!

Cheers,

Paul (Eh_train)

[BitterRoot]

Thanks mods for helping w/ the move.
I'll be ordering some hide glue soon. In the mean time I will be reading up on the use of hide glue and this particular process.

What dose everyone think of me doing some refinishing work? This was a student cello from what I can tell and was abused and neglected for some time. I'm not sure what I'd be doing when it comes to finish removal and restoration, which leads me to shy away and just fix the button joint (that is the proper term, correct?). Just leave the charter on the cello and maybe do that at a later date.

Thanks for all your help thus far. I'll be creating a full repair thread with photos to detail my process.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by eh_train

The Roth name has been used for a long time (although they may use the name in China nowadays). Because of the finish on the neck and the fact it has real purfling, I'd guess it is somewhat older and of European origin. The proper repair won't involve any metal!

Cheers,

Paul (Eh_train)

Ok then, the "right way" method is way better, and You may actually able to detach the neck. On some CCC's I've encountered, there's no dovetail, so the proper repair would involve at least making a new block. Hence the quick and dirty repair suggestion when I asumed the origins to be in the orient.

Regards
Sam

[Cody Sisk]

This might be just me but I believe that taking the back off and grafting on a new neck button is critical. Otherwise the neck angle will warp down towards the top over time. Also perfecting the mortise joint to have a good fit takes a lot of practice. Chances are, you won't get it right, thus increasing the need for a solid back button to help the neck stay put.

This is not a job for an amateur. This is why there are those of us out there doing this for a living. If repairs like this were simple, I'd be out of a job..

[BitterRoot]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

This might be just me but I believe that taking the back off and grafting on a new neck button is critical. Otherwise the neck angle will warp down towards the top over time. Also perfecting the mortise joint to have a good fit takes a lot of practice. Chances are, you won't get it right, thus increasing the need for a solid back button to help the neck stay put.

This is not a job for an amateur. This is why there are those of us out there doing this for a living. If repairs like this were simple, I'd be out of a job..

I completely understand where your coming from Dallas, but on an instrument bought for $250.00 would the cost of the repair be worth it? What would you charge(ballpark) for this kind of repair?

[fdeck]

Would it ever be acceptable to put an outside patch over the button?

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Would it ever be acceptable to put an outside patch over the button?

I've seen this done before and was impressed with the work. It was a piece of ebony grafted over about 3 inches of the back and met the back of the button. So I'd say yes, it's the same idea as doing it from the inside..

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by BitterRoot

I completely understand where your coming from Dallas, but on an instrument bought for $250.00 would the cost of the repair be worth it? What would you charge(ballpark) for this kind of repair?

More than you paid for the cello for sure. I understand your predicament, but if you want a repair that's structurally sound in the end, it might be worth paying more for the repair than you paid for the cello..

[BitterRoot]

Hey all!
Thanks for the advice everyone. I went with dallasstrings suggestion and brought it to a local luthier. I was told it was a carved eastern European cello, around 3200 to replace in today's market, so I'm glad it's getting fixed proper, the guy doing it is super cool and I'll be getting more info on it when I pick it up. He was real busy yesterday. Thanks tb!

[tyb507]

I'm curious where you are, and who you took your cello to.

[BitterRoot]

http://www.monacosviolinshop.com/

That's his site. Buffalo ny

[tyb507]

Ah. Curious because I'm in Burlington, VT...the other side of the Adirondacks...and a big lake.