Cornerless bass; any difference in sound?

MPU · #1 02-08-2010, 01:16 AM

I'm planning my first double bass. I've seen pics of cornerless basses and it looks like it would be easier to make the bass cornerless as there would be no c-bouts and blocks on the corners to worry about. Not to mention the looks that I like a lot. Is there any drawbacks on the cornerless designs? I'm going to use aircraft quality 5-ply 2mm Baltic Birch plywood for ribs so cracks in the ribs should be no problem.
Marko

George700DL · #2 02-08-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPU

I'm planning my first double bass. I've seen pics of cornerless basses and it looks like it would be easier to make the bass cornerless as there would be no c-bouts and blocks on the corners to worry about. Not to mention the looks that I like a lot. Is there any drawbacks on the cornerless designs? I'm going to use aircraft quality 5-ply 2mm Baltic Birch plywood for ribs so cracks in the ribs should be no problem.
Marko

Matthew can answer that better than I can, but I would think it would be more difficult to build a cornerless one. In my case anyway, the corners served as a nice reference point for straightness, angles, etc.

I think soundwise, the smoother the inside the better, so cornerless probably has the advantage there. But I'm just guessing.

George

MPU · #3 02-08-2010, 10:10 AM

I was thinking that making the bass cornerless is just like making an acoustic guitar body. With an outside mold it should be just as easy or difficult as with guitar, just bigger. When the ribs are in touch with mold it's easy to keep the body straight and properly shaped. And the looks, well, that's something I really, really like.
If there is no big disadvantages in cornerless then I'll make mine that way.
How about overhangs on the top and back; are they just for looks or do they have a purpose?
Marko

**Matthew Tucker** · #4 02-08-2010, 08:44 PM

Perhaps a bit trickier to make than a gamba shape, but if you're using ply definitely easier to bend the sides.

you still need a good mould to keep the thing in a good shape until ready to fit the top and back.

This biggest plus to overhangs is that they give you some leeway in gluing if the top or back needs to come off. Without overhangs, although it looks cool, if the seam splits of the plates need to come off for a repair, it will be very hard to ensure as smooth and even a join as when first built. With overhangs, if the rib garland distorts a little, and the fit isn't as precise as before, it isn't really visible. Also, having a clear seam lets you work an opening knife in there a bit more easily. Also overhangs allow you to put the bass on its side, but not scratch the rib finish. My next cornerless will likely have overhangs, although i prefer the look without.

After playing my cornerless for quite while now I can find no disadvantage. You don't need the corners to pick the bass up, you just get used to it.

Only thing is, they might not be as easy to sell as a conventional shaped bass.

MPU · #5 02-08-2010, 11:13 PM

I was planning to glue the top and back a bit oversized to have a bit room for gluing. Then I'm going to use a router (at least for the back) to make it flush with the sides. Just like when making an acoustic guitar. As for selling, I don't believe anyone is willing to buy my first bass.
Marko

arnoldschnitzer · #6 02-09-2010, 06:24 AM

Making a bass without overhangs is a really bad idea.

George700DL · #7 02-09-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPU

I was planning to glue the top and back a bit oversized to have a bit room for gluing. Then I'm going to use a router (at least for the back) to make it flush with the sides. Just like when making an acoustic guitar. As for selling, I don't believe anyone is willing to buy my first bass.
Marko

I believe one of the functions of the overhang is also to help deal with seasonal wood movement (having more freedom for re-gluing as Matthew pointed out).

George

MPU · #8 02-09-2010, 11:46 AM

While riding my bike home I thought about the reason for overhang as guitars traditionally don't have any. Is it the size of the double bass that makes it kind of neccessary to have overhangs? I mean the width of the bass needs some room for seasonal movement. Or is the top and back join moving or is the overhang to make the job easier for future repairman or to give some kind of protection to the ribs? How much overhang should the top and back have?
Marko

George700DL · #9 02-09-2010, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPU

While riding my bike home I thought about the reason for overhang as guitars traditionally don't have any. Is it the size of the double bass that makes it kind of neccessary to have overhangs? I mean the width of the bass needs some room for seasonal movement. Or is the top and back join moving or is the overhang to make the job easier for future repairman or to give some kind of protection to the ribs? How much overhang should the top and back have?
Marko

Good question re. the guitar vs. upright thing. I don't know the answer

But I do know that guitars are typically not meant to be taken apart routinely, whereas violin-family instruments are designed to be unglued and reglued when necessary.

As far as why guitars don't have the same issue with wood movement as upright basses do, I don't know, but I'm sure someone here can explain it.

I don't know the recommended measurements for the overhangs, but I think I made mine about 6mm or so, top and back. I plan on adding some bumpers on the ribs as well, since the bass will probably spend a lot of time on its side on wooden floors.

George

**Matthew Tucker** · #10 02-09-2010, 01:32 PM

I guess a guitar has a sound-hole, through which it is possible to put a hand, thus making internal repairs much easier without disassembly. But top-off repairs ARE done on valuable guitars when necessary, which often means cutting off and replacing the binding altogether.

Jake deVilliers · #11 02-09-2010, 10:35 PM

As someone who works on both basses and guitars, please let the top and back overhang the sides in the traditional manner!

F-holes are really too small for any effective interior maintenance, even on a bass, and its much better to pop the top and do the work that way.

Mandolins are really difficult to deal with having the worst of both worlds, but they don't have wide tops that crack frequently and easily.

I would LOVE it if I could easily take the top off a vintage Martin for brace repair or bridge plate work!

Bass · #12 02-09-2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George700DL

...I think soundwise, the smoother the inside the better...

+1 no sound vortices.

Jake deVilliers · #13 02-09-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

But top-off repairs ARE done on valuable guitars when necessary, which often means cutting off and replacing the binding altogether.

You don't have to destroy and discard the binding, its pretty removable, but its sometimes better to saw the top off at the bottom of the binding and re-glue the linings back together.

MPU · #14 02-09-2010, 11:23 PM

Easier repair makes sense to me. Archtop guitars are very similar to double basses and still they don't have overhangs. I guess they are just as painful as mandolins to repair. I was also thinking that maybe double basses goes so far back in time that they were made to last long, long time. And maybe, just maybe the tradition is one big issue on double basses.
Marko

**Matthew Tucker** · #15 02-09-2010, 11:45 PM

I don't thing Gasparo would have ever thought his basses would still be around in 2010! Wasn't the world going to end before then?

Another thought; there are basses like Eberles and Musimas that have outside linings that are moulded right up to the edges of the plate, I suppose the idea being that this would protect the edges on student basses. Well, it works really well to protect the edges, but if the bass needs to be taken apart because of a loose bassbar or a crack to fix, same problem. The top plate is hard to remove. I have one apart in the workshop right now, its not nice to work on at all, in fact i think i'll just remove the outside linings, round over the edges of the plates and be done with it. This means I'll probably have to strip and refinish the bass, which will end up looking great, but i'm not looking forward to it ...

MPU · #16 02-10-2010, 12:25 AM

I meant longer time as opposite of todays disposable goods.
Marko

arnoldschnitzer · #17 02-10-2010, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPU

Archtop guitars are very similar to double basses and still they don't have overhangs.

Actually, several makers of archtop guitars have embraced the superiority of building with overhangs. Among them is my friend Ken Parker:kenparkerarchtops.com

George700DL · #18 02-10-2010, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Actually, several makers of archtop guitars have embraced the superiority of building with overhangs. Among them is my friend Ken Parker:kenparkerarchtops.com

Wow, I didn't realize Parker made archtops! I just remember his guitars from my heavy metal days, always liking their unique headstocks.

MPU · #19 02-10-2010, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Actually, several makers of archtop guitars have embraced the superiority of building with overhangs. Among them is my friend Ken Parker:kenparkerarchtops.com

That's new to me. Overhangs look fine on archtops too. I've been thinking a way to "hide" the plywood end. I thought about making a kind of a binding to hide the plys. I guess something like curly maple would look fine.
Marko

Jake deVilliers · #20 02-10-2010, 10:31 AM

Joe Cleary's building Gibson-style mandolins using older violin techniques - overhanging top and back, 'corduroy'violin varnish, etc. I haven't played one yet but I kinda dig what he's doing.

http://www.campanellastrings.com/home