counterfeit basses

[Mike D.]

hello all knowledgable bass luthiers,
I just have a question on how to identify counterfeits.
I recently was interested in a bass in my area, but upon bringing the bass to a qualified luthier was dissappointed with the outcome and took the bass back.
The bass was being advertised as an old German bass of 60-80 years. It seemed old and the price seemed fair. So I took it out to my luthier.
He told me it wasn't an old bass at all. Probably 15 years or so. and the construction appeared to be Hungarian in nature, not German.
He actually told be the finish was vintaged to look old, the instrument was beat up as well to show 'wear', and the most shocking the detail revealed was that the bass' interrior was painted to fool the untrained eye into believing that the wood was infact old wood that has seen many years of oxidation (darkening of the unfinished wood with time). My luthier said all the parts inside should have varying degrees and shades of brown, and this bass' interior was the exact same color throughout.
How would I be able to tell these things next time? Also, have any of you heard of any other tricks to try to sell a bass as an "older bass" but instead being new?
your input is greatly appreciated and I thank you in advance.
Mike

[toman]

I don't know if the original intent of those basses was for them to be counterfeit or rather "replicas" or something similar. Obviously in the violin world its common for there to be "fakes" or exact copies of valuable instruments, but I don't think the basses are up to that level; besides, the end values probably wouldn't be worth the effort. We're not talking about million dollar violins...

So I guess the question is; are these kinds of basses "counterfeit", "copys", or just "pre-worn"?

[Steve Killingsworth]

It has become more common to finish some new instruments (seems to be popular with mandolins in particular) so that they look like old instruments. They call it a "distressed" finish. This is the first time I've heard of something like this being done to a bass.

[Darren Molnar]

""How would I be able to tell these things next time? Also, have any of you heard of any other tricks to try to sell a bass as an "older bass" but instead being new?
""""""""
Not an easy question to answer orally, but some times easy to see visually. Experience with a lot of old instruments would be the best way to tune you're senses so you can notice the differences. Antiqueing is an art form I admire. But like most skills, it could be used for good or for nefarious reasons.

One usual give-away is to look for cracks and deformations. For example, I don't know of any antiquer who would finish building a bass and then deliberately put a sound post crack in his top, and then repair it. Or stress cracks in the botom ribs.Around the neck button. Usually antiqueing is confined to the wearing of the varnish, with a few nicks and bruses thrown in, and some dirt rubbed into/painted onto the usual places. But I would expect to see evidence of the top being removed on an 80 year old bass, and the damage that that includes.
Look at as many old basses as you can.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I have seen many fakes and not just Basses in the last few years and to hear about a German fake is unusual. I have either seen or heard of Italian Fakes labeled or sold at Ruggeri, Bergonzi, Panormo, Ongaro (2 of them), Goffriller (bass and cello), d'Salo (Viola), Bisiach Bass (I owned it. Great Bass but just not as labeled) as well as several other Italian Basses sold as 19th century but not over 10-20 years or so on average.

Now, I think they spend as much time if not more on the antiquing process than they do making the instrument. Cracking it, opening, closing the top, Bulging Ribs, FF nicks from Post setting, Bow scratches on the bouts, Scroll Grafts.. BIG ONE. All have a squared Graft cut and not a tapered one as if done with a Jig or pattern.

Also, Varnish fading, dry ice to burn the varnish and varnish over, chimney exposure and anything else you can imagine these Hungarians will try to make and sell a fake. Staining the wood inside to look oxidized. Adding scents or dirt, dust, varnish etc to seem old and aged internally. Worn Varnish areas but not always worn or scratched where you would expect the wear to be (a smoking gun here). You name it, they just about do it.

I have seen these come straight out of Italy, London, Germany, Hungary and even Canada. I got one each from Canada and Italy myself but either knew it was not Italian on one deal and got a partial refund on the other which was a great Bass, just not a pedigree Italian as sold to me.

Some of these or most of these 'good' fakes are well made good sounding Basses. A new Bass by a good maker today can easily run from $20-30K and higher. I wish we had the actual makers names on these as some of them can rank with the better new makers out there. They don't look nor sound new either. Whatever that do, it works.

The problem is that if you pay $160-250K on a famous instrument, it better be what they say it is. Paying $5, 10, 20 or even $25k for a nice well made old looking, old sounding antiqued Hungarian Bass is just fine by me as long as we know what it actually is.

A famous label however on an antiqued instrument should not increase the price. Just the condition, sound and workmanship of the individual instrument because it must be sold only as an 'un-known' origin possibly Hungarian antiqued 'newish' Bass of unknown age (or Cello, Violin, Viola..).

Perhaps the Bass in question from the Thread starter is one of a less noticeable generic style Germanic instrument and more easily antiqued and sold.

I would like to see it if possible. So far, everyone of these Antiqued Basses I have seen was a good Bass regardless of the label.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

So far, everyone of these Antiqued Basses I have seen was a good Bass regardless of the label.

Nicely said. "Instrument" is a synonym for "tool" and has nothing to do with "investment" unless we make it so.

= = =

My friend and client, Jon Cooper, is a master at antiquing violin finishes. He doesn't make basses. (He doesn't even repair basses. Bummah.)

= = =
Discussion so far has very discretely sidestepped the issue of authentic labels on inauthentic instruments -- a political minefield in the bass world.

[Mark Carlsen]

Originally Posted by Steve Killingsworth

It has become more common to finish some new instruments (seems to be popular with mandolins in particular) so that they look like old instruments. They call it a "distressed" finish. This is the first time I've heard of something like this being done to a bass.

Daniel Hachez told me this very thing a few weeks back at Bla-Bla in Cinci that the judges at the ISB conventions love his basses [ He has won gold medals in bass making the last few conventions ] but they want them to look older...

[forester]

boss is distressed..says i add 100yrs to any instrument placed in my hands.. refutably put the P in patina

[bassrome]

There are some clever forgers who use timber salvaged from old buildings that have been demolished. In that way they are able to produce instruments that pass the dendrochronology test.

Cheers,
Jack Hill
http://www.jdhillmusic.com/

[drurb]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

They don't look nor sound new either. Whatever that do, it works.

Ken-- a very informative post that sums up much of what I've read here in the past. I was most intrigued by your statement above. They are new basses but they don't sound new. Learning how to pull that one off seems quite valuable in and of itself. I am very curious about which of the "antiquing" procedures they are using leads to this effect.

[Michael Glynn]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Some of these or most of these 'good' fakes are well made good sounding Basses. A new Bass by a good maker today can easily run from $20-30K and higher. I wish we had the actual makers names on these as some of them can rank with the better new makers out there. They don't look nor sound new either. Whatever that do, it works.

I think this is the real shame of this whole scam. These makers could be making good names for themselves and selling their basses for good money. They could probably double their output if they quit breaking and reassembling their basses after they're made too!

This isn't a new phenomenon, though. Didn't Fendt make antiqued counterfeit da Salo or Maggini basses?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

I think this is the real shame of this whole scam. These makers could be making good names for themselves and selling their basses for good money. They could probably double their output if they quit breaking and reassembling their basses after they're made too!

This isn't a new phenomenon, though. Didn't Fendt make antiqued counterfeit da Salo or Maggini basses?

Yes, Fendt did do this to a degree on Basses as well as Violins (Strad and Joseph's) as well as Jack Lott (J.F.Lott II/Jr.) on violins. They didn't crack the wood and repair it after thought for the most part (but Fendt did forge one Strad while working for Betts down to every blemish and stole the original in its place by order of John Betts, his employer). Also, their fakes did not fool the experts even in their own time for the most part, just the consumers at best.

I have played new Basses by Arnold and Jeff that were not at all antiqued in any way. Just good wood, workmanship and design. The Fakes I have encountered were made for the most part to deceive. I don't know why some dealers think it's ok to mis-represent these when careful inspection can detect these frauds.

Any dealer 'caught' in one of these lies has clearly 'stained' his reputation.

On the Fendt mention, he made many good Basses that were just good period. My Hart for instance was once thought to be a Fendt but appeared to be much older. The dark red crackled Varnish over the English gold was a dead giveaway that it was made to look old with its antiqued varnish and not to deceive. A similar bass to mine was once sold to a London Principal as a real Maggini and lived such a life of fame until it was discovered to be a British Bass. Many many British Basses made in the Italian style with or without antique styling after 100-150 years can easily be mistaken for Italian without the toughest judges examining it. Evin I at first glance thought the Hart/Fendt Bass that I purchased was Italian before looking at it closely.

Don't worry, tomorrow or at some later date you will be looking at a Bass somewhere trying to figure out if it's a real Italian, Hungarian fake or antiqued British/aged Italianized Bass made with honest means. Do not look at Basses with a Blind eye. Both eyes open and ask as many questions as possible to as many people you can find before going off the deep end.

[jimmyduded]

dont know much about fake basses but as far as violins go, ive met some incredible makers who only do reproductions of strads and the like, although they sell them as replicas and not try to pass them off as the real thing, but they do most of the things your mentioning, a very cool trick i picked up was the use of old book margins(from the time period of the violin to be replicated) as labels

[Matthew Tucker]

Antiqueing an instrument look old for aesthetic reasons is one thing. antiqueing the [i]inside[/] as trick to inflate the price is another.

[toman]

I think what is appearing in this thread is that there are two mindsets behind antiqued basses. One is simply making the bass appear worn and well used by artificially wearing varnish, tinting inside wood, and possible simulating non-structurally comprimising repair work. I don't see where anyone would object to this, other than the additional cost (assuming corners aren't being cut on the actual construction). The other mindset is not only aging the instrument, but doing so in an attempt not just to mearly make it look old, but to make it look like something other than what it really is and going so far as to actually damage and repair the instrument to further the effect. To me, unless the intent is to create a "replica", this is rather shameful behavior even though the end responsibility lies with the purchaser to determin the origin and value of the bass.

And then there is the aside issue which is what (if any) effect does any of this have on the sound of the instrument.

This is the same set of issues that affect many unique things; not just basses and violins, but vintage and exotic cars, art of all sorts, fashion, electronics, furniture... Its universal.

[Matthew Tucker]

Why would you tint the inside, if not trying to pass it off as something that it isn't?

[toman]

For one thing, sealing the wood might be a nice touch; I've had some basses that'd aquired a real funk. Sealing the inside might have elped prevent that. And, if you're going to antique the outside of the bass, why not make a little effort to tone down the bright wood inside? I don't see anything misleading about it, if the intent is good. To me it just seems along the same lines as touching up varnish over a repair or something. Just maintaining the appearance.

[1st Bass]

When I have done repairs on very old instruments, involving replacement of missing wood, I took care to tint the inside wood as well as the exterior wood, so that there was nothing to attract attention. There is certainly no intent to deceive, any more than there is such when you have your panel-beater paint your repaired fender after an accident. ("prang", to you, I think, Matthew?)

I don't like the bright white look inside, anyway (on a violin), so I would consider dimming it a little, just by preference. I did no such thing on the bass, because I really did like the clean expanse of wood inside.

But let's say my goal was to make a copy of an old bass-- really authentic to the last detail: why would I not copy the apparent age inside as well as out? I know fellows who routinely do neck grafts and peghole bushings in new violin-construction, because their customers want "old-looking" instruments.

[arnoldschnitzer]

I believe sealing the interior of a bass with anything other than hide glue is a mistake. Many cracks can be repaired through the f-holes with excellent results, but if you seal with shellac, oil, or just about anything other than hide glue, future reinforcements will not stick. Then the repairperson is forced to go the expensive and invasive route of disassembling the bass just to do minor repairs. In addition, most sealers penetrate into the wood, and that means a repairperson has to dig below the level of penetration to get reinforcements to stick. That is very unfortunate, IMHO, as you lose original wood.

[1st Bass]

Good point(s).