Does a carbon graphite rod in the neck change the sound of the instrument?

[bribass]

In your opinion, does the installation of a carbon graphite rod in the neck change the sound of the instrument at all?

[shwashwa]

ask arnold, i think he does them in some of his basses. (post the answer if you find out)

[james condino]

I've been using some variation of carbon fiber rods in the necks of almost all of my instruments since the early 90s- basses, guitars, mandolins- and install them all of the time in repair / restoration work; probably several 100 different examples across the spectrum.

Tone is subjective and difficult to describe, but for me, they have huge structural benefits; there is a very, very subtle tonal difference. It is almost like a tiny bit more focus and definition that I can tell on basses that I have known for a while prior to the installation. I've also removed broken truss rod systems and replaced them with fixed carbon fiber beams in the neck and I can tell a noticeable difference. 'Hard to describe, but basically a bit more of all the qualities I like and an evenness across the range.

The other main factor is that typically when a carbon fiber rod or beam is installed in the neck, the fingerboard gets removed and replaced and the entire neck and setup gets a full workover, so everything is in top shape when it is all finished. That is a big factor in the percieved tonal improvement, because a lot of folks wait until their bass is a complete trainwreck before bringing it in to get worked on.

On something like the tiny little necks on old Kays that tend to bend all over the place, they do structural wonders and are installed such that they are completely hidden. Here is an image of one in process showing the high tech jig I use to cut the channel (a piece of an old church bench cut to size and taped in place so that the router fence makes a nice clean, straight channel down the center of the neck- the "Kay-O-Matic"). You can also see how it stops before the body end, but I'll usually leave an 1/8 " or so visible under the nut so that the next repairman can clearly see that it has been installed before they drag out the big hammer....




j.

[Jazzdogg]

Fascinating

[Matthew Tucker]

James you're a brave man to use a taped-on router fence!!

FWIW I agree there are no downsides at all to a CF insert and it adds relatively little cost to the whole fingerboard-off setup shebang.

[james condino]

Matthew:

The tape is the paper based binding tape that LMI and Stew Mac sell. The stuff is incredibly strong; I can do a pullup on it- honestly- if you visit the shop there is a pullup bar right as you walk in the door. You can crank out a few sets when you get bored of listening to me rattle away about some boring luthier nonsense like bunny glue vs cow glue vs sturgeon bladder glue.....then we'll head to the pub and chat it up abut some other nerdy stuff.....

The reason I use the tape for the router fence is that it is extremely strong, very low profile, and the router can cut right through it with no interruptions to the pattern or damage to the blade. Only use it on the unfinished part of the neck- it will rip the finish completely off the rest of the body when you try to pull it off! The same tape allows you to do some very intricate and delicate work on the tablesaw or other big scary machines in places where you could never clamp multiple pieces together and still make a cut.

j.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by bribass

In your opinion, does the installation of a carbon graphite rod in the neck change the sound of the instrument at all?

I think it adds a bit of power to the instrument. That's because the neck is stiffer, and absorbs less string energy, allowing that energy to go where it does the most good--to the body. I'm also pretty sure it creates a tad more sustaining quality to the bass. But, like James said above, these are subtle differences.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by james condino

Matthew:

The tape is the paper based binding tape that LMI and Stew Mac sell. The stuff is incredibly strong;
j.

Cool! I use a two sided mounting tape from RHC for some of this kind of jig work. It looks a bit like carpet tape, but is removable and quite strong. You need smooth surfaces, of course. Works on wood when sanded out to 150, and you can stick it to most varnished surfaces without damaging them.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by bribass

In your opinion, does the installation of a carbon graphite rod in the neck change the sound of the instrument at all?

Yes, it gives an instrument more 'presence' - the sound is more 'forward' and has more clarity.

As others have said its a subtle difference but a positive one - it also means that you can dress the board more times without losing stiffness!

[bribass]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I think it adds a bit of power to the instrument. That's because the neck is stiffer, and absorbs less string energy, allowing that energy to go where it does the most good--to the body. I'm also pretty sure it creates a tad more sustaining quality to the bass. But, like James said above, these are subtle differences.

james condino-Tone is subjective and difficult to describe, but for me, they have huge structural benefits; there is a very, very subtle tonal difference. It is almost like a tiny bit more focus and definition that I can tell on basses that I have known for a while prior to the installation. I've also removed broken truss rod systems and replaced them with fixed carbon fiber beams in the neck and I can tell a noticeable difference. 'Hard to describe, but basically a bit more of all the qualities I like and an evenness across the range.

Jake deVilliers-Yes, it gives an instrument more 'presence' - the sound is more 'forward' and has more clarity.

As others have said its a subtle difference but a positive one - it also means that you can dress the board more times without losing stiffness!

Thanks for all the great responses, guys. I should explain; about 2.5 yrs ago I had one installed in my c.1920's German carved shop bass by Jeff B. when he also put on a new fingerboard. I've owned this bass since 1986 and was my main instrument for many yrs before acquiring my Prescott in '03 so I knew the bass very well before this work was done. It has a Beech wood neck and in the summer humidity it would bow a bit giving the fb relief more scoop in the humid warm weather and then move back in the winter months here in the NY metro area. The new fb and c/g rod stabilized this problem and did focus the tone and volume and sustain of this bass. The E is definitely more powerful as well.

A longtime bandmate/guitarist and master luthier friend of mine has said that he can "hear" a c/g rod in an instrument as opposed to a natural material being used for the same purpose, such as a hard wood spline that is harder than the neck wood. We had a gig together the other night where I used this bass and he says he can hear a difference. He had heard the bass before the c/g rod on many occasions some yrs ago, but has only heard me play the Prescott in recent yrs.
He says it has more midrange than before. I'm hearing that too, but this may be because it feels as if the newer set up has settled into the point here it may need a wee bit more relief in the scoop as the E thru F# on the G string (neck heel) area is a bit whiny right now.

What I'm hearing is a different character and feel. Definitely some more power and focus, but a more 'plaintive' sound if that makes sense. This bass has an integral bass bar and it may be I'm just hearing 'more' of this instruments tonal characteristics which is definitely a nice focused carved Jazz bass pizz sound that cuts thru, but of course not the lush penetrating complexity of the Prescott's tone. I like using the German bass in a Big Band or larger/ louder band situations as it has great definition in the mix.

Perhaps because now that the "box" is vibrating more the limitations of this type of bass bar is becoming more apparent to me. Not sure if the cost vs. tonal benefits is worth it, but I would think carving out the integral bass bar and replacing w/ a separate new bar would really make this already very good bass a great bass. Opinions?

Brian

[salcott]

As i understand the physics of the bass, a stiff neck is a good thing. At the risk of ridicule, I will also say that my Fender 5 string Jazz Bass with graphite in the neck does not have the "traditional" dead spot on the G string at the 5-6-7th frets.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by bribass

A longtime bandmate/guitarist and master luthier friend of mine has said that he can "hear" a c/g rod in an instrument as opposed to a natural material being used for the same purpose, such as a hard wood spline that is harder than the neck wood.

Do you believe him?

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Do you believe him?

[james condino]

[james condino]

I think the bigger question that everyone is wanting to ask is, given the limited time that all of us have here, if you own a nice old Prescott, why bother spending any energy on a "German carved shop bass" ?????

Say what you want about caution, and pedigree and value and the host of other things that people get absorbed into, but I know an incredible, world renowned local bassist who likes his Prescott so much, that when he's not traveling all over the world with it, he's been known to take it out to the campfire bluegrass jams and knock everyone over with a wall of sound- right next to the crusty old local fellows pulling out their $225K Lloyd Loar signed mandolins, prewar Martins, and mastertone banjos....yup, folks take their pickin' serious around here....

('apologies and such for the thread derail)

j.

[bribass]

Originally Posted by james condino

I think the bigger question that everyone is wanting to ask is, given the limited time that all of us have here, if you own a nice old Prescott, why bother spending any energy on a "German carved shop bass" ?????

Say what you want about caution, and pedigree and value and the host of other things that people get absorbed into, but I know an incredible, world renowned local bassist who likes his Prescott so much, that when he's not traveling all over the world with it, he's been known to take it out to the campfire bluegrass jams and knock everyone over with a wall of sound- right next to the crusty old local fellows pulling out their $225K Lloyd Loar signed mandolins, prewar Martins, and mastertone banjos....yup, folks take their pickin' serious around here....

Well, simply because as a working professional I need a good back up axe. I'm sure your world renowned local player has one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not that overly cautious w/ the Prescott. I bought to play and I've been known to take anywhere I can drive it to including outdoors if the weather and safety conditions are ok. I too do not like being w/o it, but I will not fly and trust the airline goons w/ it! Besides it's broad upper bouts do not fit into my flight case and I've heard and seen to many horror stories about basses being destroyed by the airlines. I do not have my own "people" moving it about in heavy ATA cases as pro orchestras do. I slog my fiberglass flight case thru airports on my own and the German bass has successfully w/o incident (knock on wood) flown to Spain, Japan, Russia, FL etc. over the years. These days I do my best to procure a decent DB at the locale I'm flying to. It's just getting too difficult to fly a DB in a hard case as I used to.

Recently I've had some close calls w/ the Prescott. Although I often get to perform w/ it in ideal settings in renowned theaters and clubs the particular gig I spoke of in this thread was an outdoor wedding on a cramped concrete patio near the beach on an overcast, very humid day some 3 hrs from home. In addition I might of had to leave it in the car for an extended period. Not an ideal or necessary situation for the Prescott. ANY gigging, non-orchestral bassist out there that is still able to make a living performing these days can tell you about the financial realities of having to take some 'general business' jobs for the $ AND the extreme difficulties and hazards of traveling w/ your prized possession. Even (insert any famous Jazz bassist name here) has taken private party gigs and is not traveling w/ their best DB any longer. In short it is just the practical realities of my profession that have led me to want to maximize my "B" DB, even though I have 3 kids, a mortgage AND a Prescott. Did I answer your question?