E string Problems - Page 2

Thomas Stone · #21 02-26-2006, 12:56 PM

Crikey this thread has been chugging along nicely.

Been away for a while.

How seriously does neck thickness effect the tone?

I've continued to experiment with my bass to try and get to the cause of the stopped note problem.

My fingerboard is possibly a bit thin.
The bridge is a fair bit below the "optimum" height, so in due course when the board is replaced I'll have a shim added to effectively increase the neck angle and overstep.

Combined with a new bridge - with adjusters properly installed unlike the appalling effort by my basses previous owner/repairer- I'm hoping that the stopped notes on the E string will sound as good as the open E.

Tbeers · #22 02-26-2006, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Stone

Combined with a new bridge - with adjusters properly installed unlike the appalling effort by my basses previous owner/repairer- I'm hoping that the stopped notes on the E string will sound as good as the open E.

At some point, you ought to try a Thomastik E string -- either their Spirocore or Dominant brand. Nothing else cuts it on the bottom!

Doug Ring · #23 02-27-2006, 07:22 AM

Well... that's what I'm using and I still have this problem: Spirocore Weichs. I've heard it said that a different gauge E-string such as a Stark or an Orchestra can help, but I haven't got around to trying that yet.

Thomas Stone · #24 02-27-2006, 09:51 AM

I've been using the spirocore E for a while, swapping over to Obligato E when doing lots of bowing.

The spirocore certainly has a meatier sound on pizz -maybe a little more open sounding than the obligato, but it makes no difference to the stopped note problem. The fundamental falls away the string becomes unresponsive and the sound is contaminated with fingerboard growl.

I'm resigning myself to the issue simply being inherent to my bass.
Oh well.

Thomas Stone · #25 02-27-2006, 10:08 AM

Sorry Doug

I never replied to the point you raised a while back about the shape of the bass.

My bass is a slightly small bodied 3/4 Gamba aswell.
I too had come to the conclusion that the volume of the box could not provide enough resonance for the Stopped notes on the E. The open E itself sounding ok due to the full length of the string vibrating.

One is aware that with the A, D and G strings the sound comes from the bass, whereas the E seems to made up of more "string" sound. If that makes any sense to you.

However while at my luthiers recently he showed me some of the travel basses he makes. Full 3/4 bass body, but half the depth (then with a removeable neck etc etc)

I was amazed at how good the E string sounded. the only compromise seemed to be a slight lack of volume across ALL the strings. The E was faultless both open and stopped.

Body volume could be an issue with our basses Doug, but I'm sure these travel basses have less body volume than our basses do.

I think i may well give up trying to resolve the issue with new strings.

Michael Case · #26 02-27-2006, 10:33 AM

I think you need to consider the fact that a stopped string will not sound like an open string. Just like playing the A octave on the D string sounds different than the same note on the G string. It's why players choose to go up and down the neck rather than play across the strings sometimes, because the notes will have a different timbre. That plus the fact that you are standing behind your bass may be part of the problem. Try recording yourself with the mic away from the bass to get an idea of how it sounds out front. I've never played a bass that didn't have a difference in timbre between open and stopped strings.

Just some food for thought,
Mike

Doug Ring · #27 02-28-2006, 06:19 AM

Hi Thomas, I know exactly what you mean about the "string sound". It may be my technique for all I know. I need to get somebody else playing my bass to find out, as Mike suggests. It just seems, as per your original post, that if the body can support the full sound of the open E that it shouldn't reduce the volume the minute you play an F. Maybe I should get some woodworkers clamps out to stop a note and see if it's just me not using enough pressure (kidding... just kidding!)

Mike, I know where you're coming from too. On bass guitar I often play the E on the A-string and move everything up an octave so that I don't get that open E sounding different from all the other notes. I don't do it so much with double bass because I need the open strings to keep my intonation good. But what Thomas and I are talking about is a problem unique to the E-string on our basses. The A, D and G sound consistent whether stopped or open; the E seems to lose power when stopped.

jmceachern36 · #28 02-28-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Stone

I've been using the spirocore E for a while, swapping over to Obligato E when doing lots of bowing.

The spirocore certainly has a meatier sound on pizz -maybe a little more open sounding than the obligato, but it makes no difference to the stopped note problem. The fundamental falls away the string becomes unresponsive and the sound is contaminated with fingerboard growl.

I've had this exact same problem using the same strings you are using. So here's my 2 cents. Like somone else already said, have somone play your bass and listen. The problem may not be as bad as you think. On my bass the obli was all fingerboard noise and I had to take it off but the spiro wasn't but I couldn't tell from playing it myself. Also, (my teacher told me this one) instead of pulling the string down toward your body, sweep it away to the right side of your body. This cleared up the problem completly for me. Best of luck.

Joe

Doug Ring · #29 03-01-2006, 11:19 AM

Well there is a difficulty here for those of us who don't use amps: if you can't hear your E-string yourself, you don't want your audience being the only people who can tell your intonation smells. It may be a small comfort to know that your strings sound balanced to others, but the person who needs to hear them best is always going to be yourself.

Still, if changing pizz technique can solve the problem, I'm interested. Can you elaborate on this sweeping technique, Joe?

By the way, I forgot to mention that my E-string became louder after I filed a little out of the nut for it and the A-string. It was two business cards under the string at the nut, now it's one. Some people say you can take it down as low as a single sheet of paper, but given that you can't put the filings back, I'm wary of going that far. It was definitely worth doing for playability and volume, though it still didn't solve the open v. stopped problem.

jmceachern36 · #30 03-01-2006, 11:21 PM

Hmmm. A tough one to explain without showirng in person. What you are doing is changing the angle at which you pull the string. Instead of the follow through of your finger being toward the bass or f hole, it should be toward your right leg. It's not any big change.

Doug Ring · #31 03-02-2006, 05:49 AM

Right Joe, I can visualise that. Do you find you can still anchor your thumb on the edge of the fingerboard while doing that? It sounds as if you'd have to move your whole hand away towards your leg to accomplish it.

jmceachern36 · #32 03-02-2006, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Ring

Right Joe, I can visualise that. Do you find you can still anchor your thumb on the edge of the fingerboard while doing that? It sounds as if you'd have to move your whole hand away towards your leg to accomplish it.

No I have my thumb right on the side of the board, but the person who showed me did move his whole hand. Just experiment with the angle and what part of the finger you use.

Michael Case · #33 03-02-2006, 08:46 AM

You might also want to look into using the weight of your arm, many bass players (myself included) tend to just use the fingers to pull the sound from the bass, Try using your finger more like a hook attached to the end of your arm and try to get the pizz stroke movement from the shoulder and elbow instead of the fingers and wrist.

Doug Ring · #34 03-03-2006, 04:20 AM

Thanks for those tips, guys.

JJBluegrasser · #35 03-03-2006, 07:39 AM

Doug,
I'm having the exact same problem right now on my bass. I just got a new fingerboard and setup and now my string height isn't as high as it used to be since the board is thicker. I was really frustrated with the growliness of the E string, and I'm fixing it two ways. The first is that I put a Spiro Stark on the E and A strings. The second is exactly what's being suggested here. I used the play the E by pulling it down toward the board too much, but I'm working on making sure it vibrates more parallel to the FB.

With my old setup, I didn't have to do it correctly because the scoop was so drastic that it vibrated fine the way I played it. If anything, I'm trying to view this "annoyance" as a way for me to improve my playing. It bows great, which tells me that I'm playing the pizz incorrectly.

This will all straighten out for you if you follow the advice in the thread.

Jason

Doug Ring · #36 03-06-2006, 03:59 AM

I've been doing some experimentation based on the advice here, and it's proved spot-on. Pulling the string parallel to the board instead of down towards it really makes the difference, but I also found it helpful to "dig in" and pull from underneath the string as well. I ended up with the "hook" idea that Mike suggests and was practically using the knuckle of my first finger. It'll take some practice to integrate this style with playing the other strings but it's worth it to hear that E sing out!

jb6884 · #37 03-14-2006, 05:05 PM

The Spiro E & A on my kay just never did settle in. Obligato E & A fixed my issue... really evened out the tone and volume across all strings and reduced wonkiness when amped. I don't advocate changing technique due to unhappiness with the current sound without first trying different strings or going to a luthier to see if he/she can help. However, I do use the "hook" method described above.. always have. I describe it as playing with the side of my finger but where it catches the string is just forward of the last knuckle on my index finger - almost in the crease. The sound is much fuller and louder with no buzzes, rattles, etc. I think a lot of guys pick that up just through experimentation and the need for more volume acoustically (like I did)..

I had years of classical training and I can't remember one teacher ever discussing pizzicato technique.