Ebony Bridge Adjusters

[damonsmith]

I just took the bass in for some much needed neck repairs, while it was in the shop I had ebony adjusters put on.
I feel like they make a pretty big difference. The bass is warmer, easier to activate and it bows even smoother.
Some of it is going to be getting the neck back into place and having a lot less tension but it seems like the adjusters make a big difference.

Does anyone else have any experiences with them?

[robobass]

Did you have aluminum adjusters before, or a solid bridge?
Robobass

[damonsmith]

I had aluminum, I need adjusters to change the action for different periods of playing different music.

[Wyzird05]

Are they all ebony or are they ebony and posts with synthetic wheels like the Stenholm adjusters? I'm just curious because I have three pairs of the Stenholm adjusters, and I'm looking to put one pair on.

[damonsmith]

They have synthetic wheels.

[Damon Rondeau]

This thread would seem an appropriate place for a link to the Andrew Brown bass bridge adjuster study.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

This thread would seem an appropriate place for a link to the Andrew Brown bass bridge adjuster study.

Perhaps, but that "study" still has the same basic flaws that it has had since it was written. You can not assume that any adjuster will sound the same relative to other adjusters on any other bass. This has been covered in the past and several bass luthiers have found the "study" is fatally flawed based on our experience installing different type adjusters on many different basses.

[Damon Rondeau]

...none of which negates the fact that the study exists and maybe somebody might want to read it for themselves. I offer no opinion on the thing, only a link.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

...none of which negates the fact that the study exists and maybe somebody might want to read it for themselves. I offer no opinion on the thing, only a link.

I agree with you that (unfortunately) the "study" does exist. Why no opinion?

[Damon Rondeau]

...because then I'd have to spend a bunch of time today re-reading it and re-familiarizing myself with it. On this day off, I'd rather watch the golf tournament and then head to my sister's for Father's Day hot dogs. The study thing can wait 'till tomorrow.

In science sometimes flawed studies are the best ones to check out -- it's what we learn from and it provides a springboard for talking about how to do things right. Measurement and design is seldom a straightforward exercise and there are no perfect studies in any field of endeavor. Damon S has expressed an interest in talking about the topic today and maybe he hasn't seen the thing. He's obviously no dummy -- he'll pick up on the pros and cons. If he doesn't, I'm sure you'll straighten him out, Bob.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

If he doesn't, I'm sure you'll straighten him out, Bob.

Actually no, I won't need to say anything else because it's all been said before and last time I checked, the search facility still works on this forum. The reason I asked was I found it hard to believe that you would post something under your name and not have some kind of opinion about it. I don't think I've ever posted anything here or anywhere else where I didn't have an personal opinion about it - one way or the other. To each his own. You can go back to watching golf now.

[Damon Rondeau]

You want my opinion?? I believe search would reveal the opinion clearly enough. My opinion is that the study is a decent-enough early effort to look at the various factors that may be relevant. Is it decisive? No. Does it control all possible factors? No. Does it arrive at wrong conclusions? Maybe. Is it a worthless piece of crap? If it gets people talking sensibly about the flaws and where it may have gone wrong, then not at all. That is how science proceeds and how it works.

I've graded hundreds of undergraduate research design first efforts. It's not as easy as it looks and most of them suck quite badly. This one was definitely a good effort and good-faith peer review has worked exactly the way it's supposed to: it's revealed the flaws in the research design and thus the conclusions.

But we shouldn't bother with any of that because it's not worth talking about, right? Especially in a thread where the topic is "whaddya think, do ebony adjusters sound different?" Heaven forbid.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

You want my opinion?? I believe search would reveal the opinion clearly enough. My opinion is that the study is a decent-enough early effort to look at the various factors that may be relevant. Is it decisive? No. Does it control all possible factors? No. Does it arrive at wrong conclusions? Maybe. Is it a worthless piece of crap? If it gets people talking sensibly about the flaws and where it may have gone wrong, then not at all. That is how science proceeds and how it works.

I've graded hundreds of undergraduate research design first efforts. It's not as easy as it looks and most of them suck quite badly. This one was definitely a good effort and good-faith peer review has worked exactly the way it's supposed to: it's revealed the flaws in the research design and thus the conclusions.

But we shouldn't bother with any of that because it's not worth talking about, right? Especially in a thread where the topic is "whaddya think, do ebony adjusters sound different?" Heaven forbid.

Thank you. It's nice to see that you do actually have an opinion even if I don't happen to agree with any of it.

[Damon Rondeau]

That's great, Bob. Just great. There's another opinion for ya.

[damonsmith]

I am mainly just curious because my bass does play and sound way better, but my neck was twisted and my action was a little too high before so I am not exactly sure where the difference is coming from.
There was no thread about ebony adjusters and they are not even in the study.
A friend of mine got some a month or so ago, I heard him and I thought I heard a difference as well. Still, you never know.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I am mainly just curious because my bass does play and sound way better, but my neck was twisted and my action was a little too high before so I am not exactly sure where the difference is coming from.
There was no thread about ebony adjusters and they are not even in the study.
A friend of mine got some a month or so ago, I heard him and thought I heard a difference as well. Still, you never know.

Damon - I use the old original Robertson (Stenholm) all ebony adjusters (which are no longer available) on my personal bass and they sound great. However, I've installed them on other basses and found them lacking. Every bass is different and what work well on one bass does not translate to working well on another bass. The same is true of adjusters made of other materials. On the great majority of bass I've work on, brass adjuster tend to mute the sound. However, I and other luthiers here have found on certain basses, the brass adjusters sound magnificent. I don't know of any way for you to determine ahead of time how your particular bass is going to respond with a particular type and weight of adjusters. An experienced bass luthier can guide you, but there is still a certain amount of trial and error involved in finding what adjuster is right for you. My disagreement with our esteemed moderator about the "study" is that reading it may lead you down the wrong path. IMO, You are much better off becoming friends with you local bass luthier, who has day to day experience working with basses, rather than relying on a "study" based a dubious premise. By all means read it, but keep in mind that the person who wrote the paper was not a professional luthier and that he made assumptions that do not hold up in the real world.

[Damon Rondeau]

I'm not exactly sure what "wrong path" Bob is concerned about here, although I can guess. The study implicitly suggests -- but does not state outright -- that its findings might be generalizable to all basses. The author has no basis for such a claim, whether he intended to make it or not. His study doesn't examine variation across basses -- that's obvious and straightforward. So no generalizability for him -- Brown simply didn't design himself a platform from which to talk about "all adjusters, all basses".

But Brown wasn't completely wasting his time, and you won't waste yours either if you have an interest in the topic and an interest in science. I thought his measurement concepts and work were quite solid. Additionally, the study's design to control variation within that single bass were definitely adequate. Absolutely a passing grade, but marks deducted for appearing to go farther with conclusions than the design allowed.

Bob, I hope I'm not off-base summarizing your point as, "based on my experience, adjusters can make a tonal difference but the effects vary widely across basses and there is no predicting the effect of a given adjuster on a given bass." That seems completely reasonable and realistic. The idea that somebody might want to empirically test that wisdom -- or any finding or claim or experience having to do with the sound of our basses, not just stuff about adjusters -- also seems to me to be completely reasonable, valid and interesting. I'd read any further studies and so would a lot of folks on this board; there's definitely interest in the topic. Some people might say it's impossible to study this stuff empirically but my research background (social science and medical -- not acoustics or materials or anything directly relevant) tells me that isn't true at all. It's just a matter of effort and thus resources.

I posted the link for the purpose of general information. I guess my posting it gives the impression of authorizing everything (or anything) about it -- I hadn't considered that and it was a surprise to me. I reject completely, though, the idea that it might have been wrong or a waste of time to post the link. The study is relevant to the thread topic, that's all, especially to folks who are merely interested in the topic and not necessarily looking for or needing guidance from their luthier. The study is what it is; the followup conversation and peer review are what they are. We know more with both of those things than we did without them. But that's opinion number one again.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

But Brown wasn't completely wasting his time, and you won't waste yours either if you have an interest in the topic and an interest in science. I thought his measurement concepts and work were quite solid. Additionally, the study's design to control variation within that single bass were definitely adequate. Absolutely a passing grade, but marks deducted for appearing to go farther with conclusions than the design allowed..

Damon - If you were grading this paper in one of your classes, I would probably agree with you. However, Talkbass is not one of your classes and you don't do the grading. I don't fault Mr. Brown for writing the paper. I hope he got a good grade because it did involve a lot of work. However, we don't even know if it was his intention to have this paper seen by the general public and accepted as a "scientific" study.

The Talkbass forum has many young members who are eager to learn about doublebasses and what makes them tick. I don't think we are doing them any favors by posting material such as this without also pointing out the errors that have been pointed out in the past by professionals who make their living working on basses. Unfortunately, in today's society, people frequently accepts anything that looks to be "scientific" as fact without looking any further.

[Ed Fuqua]

I find it awfully amusing that so much emphasis is being placed on the effect the adjusters might be having and everybody is completely glossing over the neck work and its effect.

You know I used to have cheap Goodyears on my Yugo, but I've found that putting Pirellis on the Ferrari has it outperforming the Goodyears...

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I find it awfully amusing that so much emphasis is being placed on the effect the adjusters might be having and everybody is completely glossing over the neck work and its effect.

You know I used to have cheap Goodyears on my Yugo, but I've found that putting Pirellis on the Ferrari has it outperforming the Goodyears...

- And that is why I am asking. The neck went slowly out of wack for 6 months or a year but I had too many gigs and not enough $$ to take it in (or so I thought, the repair was pretty cheap).
Durring that time the bass aged some and I practiced so I am theoretically better - and now my bass sounds much better than it ever did, or so it seems.
So I guess I am asking if anyone JUST had bridge work done, got ebony adjusters and noticed a huge difference. There must be someone around here....